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  #11  
Old 09-09-2005, 02:25 PM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

[ QUOTE ]

Position isn't making a huge difference here. Switch the positions and JJ89 is still going to have a tough decision.
He is going to have to evaluate whether is set is best when the LAG is probably betting out or check-raising the flop a lot of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the LAGS position preflop is what created this situation [i.e. having to decide whether or not to commit a deep stack to middle set]

I think the smooth call showed a ton of strength.
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2005, 02:26 PM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an "advanced play" that might work on this LAG player.

Check the flop. If Villain pots it, I put him on 4 broadways like AQJT. On the turn, if a 7 or heart falls, check-raise.

If Villain checks back the flop, I put him on AA. On the turn, if any KQT falls, check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting line. With regards to flop, however, if we check and he pots it, how do you leave AAxx out of the range? I don't think a LAG check behinds with AAxx here because it would be out of character. He's going to represent AAxx here with our without so often that if he checks behind its going to raise eyebrows.
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  #13  
Old 09-09-2005, 02:36 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

Yeah, I don't think a LAG every checks behind here unless he has good reason to suspect the other player has AA.
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  #14  
Old 09-09-2005, 02:38 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

Let's assume that the button will pot the flop here about 75% of the time, regardless of his holdings.
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  #15  
Old 09-09-2005, 02:47 PM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting line. With regards to flop, however, if we check and he pots it, how do you leave AAxx out of the range? I don't think a LAG check behinds with AAxx here because it would be out of character. He's going to represent AAxx here with our without so often that if he checks behind its going to raise eyebrows.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think you can leave AAxx out, but LAG player will often check AAxx top set on the flop as a slow-play. After check-raising the turn, if AAxx is still the nuts and villain reraises, call or fold depending on the implied odds.
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  #16  
Old 09-09-2005, 02:47 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

Like I said, I don't think position is really the issue here. Even if the LAG is OOP, middle set is probably going to get bet into or check-raised by a wide variety of hands.

I agree that the smooth call showed a huge amount of strength, and if I held the JJ89 there, I would have a hard time putting another dime in the pot barring a jack, or a runner runner flush. Given that I know both of these players, I know that the LAG is not calling without a good wrap or AA. The LAG is not an idiot, and the call shows a lot more strength than a raise would.
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  #17  
Old 09-09-2005, 02:48 PM
TheRempel TheRempel is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

The stacks are not so big that there will be any kind of money left if either play check-raises the turn.
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  #18  
Old 09-09-2005, 03:25 PM
beset7 beset7 is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, I don't think position is really the issue here. Even if the LAG is OOP, middle set is probably going to get bet into or check-raised by a wide variety of hands.

I agree that the smooth call showed a huge amount of strength, and if I held the JJ89 there, I would have a hard time putting another dime in the pot barring a jack, or a runner runner flush. Given that I know both of these players, I know that the LAG is not calling without a good wrap or AA. The LAG is not an idiot, and the call shows a lot more strength than a raise would.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with the second part. With regards to position though, i think its the key factor it what led to this situation. Say we have position on the LAG w/ JJ98, we can smooth call and let him hang himself on a favorable flop, or we can raise and play a big pot. Here, we raised LP, the LAG raises, and now we are in a situation where we either have to get out of the way or commit a deep stack to middle set (barring a turn that gives us a good draw). With position, the pot could have been smaller on the flop and our options would have been more diverse. But surely position isn't a big factor in the flop play, just how we got there (which is why having a tricky LAG on your left = problematic).

After the check min-raise do you think folding a blank turn is an option for CO? I think the money is going in. If he's going to c/r the turn it may as well be all-in.
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  #19  
Old 09-09-2005, 06:42 PM
benkahuna benkahuna is offline
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Default Re: Tricky hand observed on stars last night...

Once min raise goes through, CO has to make a decision. Doesn't look like the LAG is folding (at least not on the turn) and I think there's enough information to make a decision whether it's worth continuing. For me, I probably just say f it and pay off with middle set. If you can't get it all in versus a LAG without the nuts, I think you're going to have a few problems:

1. Not playing aggressively enough with strong hands
2. Getting run over by the LAG guy.

I try to make a decision before the flop how I'm going to handle different flops here. You may lose money in the hand doing that, but it beats the hell out of making a bunch of tricky decisions against an unpredictable player. It seems almost like there are a bunch of dark tunnel bets going down here, largely directionless.

I could totally see a LAG player either having the nuts here or representing them and if he's playing properly, the guy is going to take advantage of position, like he has a very strong chance of doing here.

I prefer to make these decisions and get on with my life rather than agonizing over them and especially with ones like this where there is a good amount of uncertainty. Once I see the outcome, I can learn about the player and adjust my game accordingly.
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