Turn raises....

[Michael Emery]

A few times in my sessions yesterday the following situation came up. I would raise in EP (10 handed) with a hand like AK or AQ. Two callers to see a very ragged flop like 2h 6d 8c. I would bet the flop, one would drop, and the other call. I then would fire again on the turn when a total blank hit and get raised. I was foolish enough to call down in a few instances like that with my AK thinking it might be a "move" with a weaker unpaired hand like AT/QK/QJ/etc. I'm realizing now that they seemed to be wasted bets as the three or so times I called down with AK I saw a hand like a med. overpair. So my question is are turn raises with nothing at limits like 2-4/3-6 on party rare?

Mike Emery

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
A few times in my sessions yesterday the following situation came up. I would raise in EP (10 handed) with a hand like AK or AQ. Two callers to see a very ragged flop like 2h 6d 8c. I would bet the flop, one would drop, and the other call. I then would fire again on the turn when a total blank hit and get raised. I was foolish enough to call down in a few instances like that with my AK thinking it might be a "move" with a weaker unpaired hand like AT/QK/QJ/etc. I'm realizing now that they seemed to be wasted bets as the three or so times I called down with AK I saw a hand like a med. overpair. So my question is are turn raises with nothing at limits like 2-4/3-6 on party rare?

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

Well without reads u can't really tell if its a "move" or not -- if u see a player at your table check-raise the turn a few times with nothng, make a mental note so if you're in the same situation u have an idea of whats going on.

As far as AK with two limpers on a ragged flop. Bet the flop. (got one to drop, thats good) if its a brick on the turn and u bet and get raised, there are a couple of hands that could be out against u. Top flop pair, set, an overpair to the board, maybe even a low two pair. Usually the turn is where u really find out if they have something or not. If I bet and get raised on the turn with AQ or AK and the pot is small, Im likely to fold it.

I think the play is good though, in this case the 2nd limper hit something (sometimes they will put u on AK-AJ and if they feel their 99-QQ is good they will bet/raise the turn)

[shark6]

Yes, turn raises HU are sometimes a "move" on you.

However, if you make a habit of calling turn raises with Ace high against typical 2/4'ers in small pots, I think it hurts your win rate.

[sweetjazz]

You need to get reads. Some players raise the turn with nothing with a very high frequency. You often have to call them down every time with A high, because they bluff that often. However, such players are not too common. I play late night, and I can often find one such player on at least one table I play at, but it's only those rare times when I find several such players at one table, or even find several tables with at least one such player who lasts for very long.

There are other players who play very passive and whose turn raises almost always beat TPGK. They are more common, but you (obviously) don't see turn raises from them as often. These are the opponents against whom you can toss hands like AK unimproved if you don't have outs besides the overcards.

Fortunately, while there are some players who bluff with closer to the correct frequency, they aren't all too common from what I have seen. (FWIW, I have only played ~6K hands at 2/4 and none at 3/6, and almost all late night.) These players raise the turn with strong hands and also with the occassional semi-bluff. You have to observe them more carefully, but if they play well then they will succeed in getting you to incorrectly fold AK some of the time. The main objective should be to sit at tables where there aren't too many players like this.

The only thing I can stress is DO NOT get in the habit of playing situations like you described the same no matter what. Being a good poker player requires you to recognize your opponent's playing style and adjust to it. You must take into consideration who is raising you. For the first 30 minutes at a table you might have to use default lines, but after that you should have some kind of read on everybody at the table that you can use to improve your decisions at the table.

[TStoneMBD]

i feel you dude, i really do. there are donkeys everywhere. whats worse is that you dont know who they are. what i recommend that you do is every time you see someone make a donkey play, create a note that says "donkey" for them. i started doing this today and you wouldnt believe how many times it saved my ass already. if you make these notes with consistency, after you get a hundred hands on a player and dont have a donkey note on him, you can be fairly certain that you can fold safely to him.

also, if you see somebody take a really weird line, like a limpreraise or a double checkraise, look him up, because its a big bluff more times than not.

also, try not to make a habit out of calling down doneky plays from the turn. if you want to look a guy up because he might be donking you, try to only do it once you made it to the river. also, its hard to look somebody up with only ahigh, because many of these donkeys are making moves on you with bottom pair, thinking that they are going to bluff you off your aces.

i rarely fold strong hands anymore, such as PPs, that cant beat what a turn raise represents. there are just too many donkeys out there. one more thing that you should know is that AK UI most be folded on the turn at 3/6. you can get away with chasing AK at higher limits a bit more, but you cant at lower limits. the reason for this is that a turn raise suggests 2pair or better nearly always at 3/6, and you will be drawing dead a large majority of the time.

[SA125]

If you have PT, look at the misc stats for A high hands. It throws out the window all the published stuff about being right X amount of times to be a winner.

The amount of times it's raised and beats you far outweighs the amount of times you call with A high full ring online. 6 max is closer because of much more posturing.