KJu ; Should I have folded somewhere on this 3flush flop

kaidoy · #1 09-12-2005, 02:06 PM

This was a hand from yesterday, so I forgot about the reads; nothing special that I can recall,

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB :#A500AF(villain)/ completes, BB :#A500AF(pf-raiser)/ raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB :#A500AF(villain)/ calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
villain checks, pf-raiser bets, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero raises, villain 3-bets, pf-raiser folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
villain bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
villain bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB
Main Pot: 12.50 BB, between Hero and villain.

would you play this the same ?

btw, Im still new to the forum, can you tell me what went wrong with the converter?

hobbsmann · #2 09-12-2005, 02:26 PM

raise preflop.
flop is fine.
river call is good.

Postflop I play this hand the same.

#3 09-12-2005, 03:02 PM

Definately do not raise preflop. K-high is not good enough to show down, so you don't want to start it off with a raise (unless MP2 and CO are particularly terrible and you want to isolate them).

I prefer a fold on the flop here, as its not unreasonable for pf-raiser to hold a higher club (AA,KK,AK) or a pair that beats you. I really don't think you have enough outs to justify drawing here (your straight draw is weak because of the texture of the board, and your flush draw is pretty weak too, given the action that you've seen).

Given your flop action (which you may have had a good reason for), I don't like your turn call against the flop check-reraise. I think that's the time to dump this hand. Your river call is mandatory given the way you played up until then.

meep_42 · #4 09-12-2005, 03:12 PM

I agree with Hobbs.

-d

kaidoy · #5 09-12-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Definately do not raise preflop. K-high is not good enough to show down, so you don't want to start it off with a raise (unless MP2 and CO are particularly terrible and you want to isolate them).

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with you there, my thinking was the same, besides Im more likely to get bet into by a weaker hand if I pair on the flop

[ QUOTE ]

I prefer a fold on the flop here, as its not unreasonable for pf-raiser to hold a higher club (AA,KK,AK) or a pair that beats you. I really don't think you have enough outs to justify drawing here (your straight draw is weak because of the texture of the board, and your flush draw is pretty weak too, given the action that you've seen).

[/ QUOTE ]

He may vary well try to take it down with a middle pair and by a raise I could take it down right away, and even if he has only a pair which he'll continue to play I still believe I have lots of outs and if he has only a high club I also still have lots of outs
[ QUOTE ]

Given your flop action (which you may have had a good reason for), I don't like your turn call against the flop check-reraise. I think that's the time to dump this hand. Your river call is mandatory given the way you played up until then.

[/ QUOTE ]

my thought was that the check-raiser may very well have a flush that can be beat by my Jc or a set to which I have many more outs

Fat Nicky · #6 09-12-2005, 03:29 PM

A pre-flop raise here is standard, i'm really not sure why people are saying to just call here. KJ is usually better than 2 random limper's hands, and it gives us a chance to eliminate the blinds as the hand plays much better 3 handed than 5 handed.

I like the flop raise to try to get the pot heads up against the pf-raiser, this plan gets sidetracked thwn the SB 3-bets, but at least the pot ends up HU anyway.

Now, from my experience a flop 3-bet by the SB doesn't necessarily mean a made flush yet. Typically, most players like to slowplay a flush and wait for the turn to put in raises. This looks like either top pair or he holds the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Based on that, the rest of the hand plays itself.

hobbsmann · #7 09-12-2005, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Definately do not raise preflop. K-high is not good enough to show down, so you don't want to start it off with a raise (unless MP2 and CO are particularly terrible and you want to isolate them).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really bad advice as KJo figures to have a decent equity edge against two random limpers and a hand like this doesn't play all that well multiway and raising will eliminate the blinds a fair portion of the time.

damaniac · #8 09-12-2005, 03:55 PM

I think raising is better, you could make a case for not raising (maybe) if blinds were very loose and limpers were decent and you're just creating a huge multiway pot with a hand that sucks in those, but I doubt it. However, this reasoning

[ QUOTE ]
K-high is not good enough to show down

[/ QUOTE ]

makes absolutely no sense. Where did you get the idea that you have to raise with a showdown-worthy hand exactly? Do you not raise QJs/JTs on the button with many limpers?