Just Calling with AK on the Big Blind

[gunboat]

[ QUOTE ]
Ax and Kx are crappy hands unless they are suited, but regardless your crappy players are going to be playing FAR more crappy As and Ks than decent players. Bad players aren't going to fold these hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

While what you say is true, we are talking about a hand with 4 or 5 limpers. If there are players in with Ax and Kxs, your AK is going to be less likely to hit.

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=272077
pokenum -h ah kd - ad 6s - kc 5c - qd jc - th 9h - 7s 7d
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Ah 97357 14.80 552980 84.04 7671 1.17 0.154
6s Ad 45586 6.93 608277 92.44 4145 0.63 0.072
Kc 5c 88659 13.47 565438 85.93 3911 0.59 0.138
Jc Qd 140639 21.37 516984 78.57 385 0.06 0.214
Th 9h 147246 22.38 510377 77.56 385 0.06 0.224
7s 7d 130850 19.89 526773 80.06 385 0.06 0.199

With a couple of crappy A and K hands in the mix, your EV goes into the toilet against other reasonable limping hands. Add the -EV of EP and raising would be clearly wrong in the above example.

With one or two limpers, the raise is clearly correct. With more, the decision is about even. With 3 or 4 I will raise if the AK are the same color to vary my play. With 5 I will normally just check.

One more point. A raise with 4 limpers will make the pot big enough so it is correct for anyone with a piece of the flop to take one off if you hit and lead.

[James282]

A couple things, gunboat.

[ QUOTE ]
While what you say is true, we are talking about a hand with 4 or 5 limpers. If there are players in with Ax and Kxs, your AK is going to be less likely to hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope this is obvious to anyone playing poker. I was responding to Nate's point that he would want to raise people who play crappy As and Ks. His point was that these people will pay you off more, giving your preflop raise more equity. Since you can never ever know what your opponents exactly have, a raise is going to be correct far more often than not, and WAY WAY more often than making it EV neutral. In your example where both an A and K were out against 5 limpers(this is unlikely but certainly plausible) your raise is EV neutral. On average, in unraised pots, you will be against less than 2 of your outs, making this a clearly +EV raise in itself.

[ QUOTE ]
A raise with 4 limpers will make the pot big enough so it is correct for anyone with a piece of the flop to take one off if you hit and lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is already big enough for people with as little as one pair to keep drawing after the flop. Also, I'll repeat myself, bad players are going to draw with any piece of the flop regardless, do NOT worry about "manipulating pot size" against bad players. I think this part of HPFAP should be completely ignored unless you are playing against a table of player who are basically breakeven or better(and you shouldnt be playing at this table). [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]
No need to get fancy here. Just raise and start pounding away. The only reason I could think of not to raise is that you feel like most of the people in the pot play much better postflop than you, in which case, you should once again not be at the table. By the way, not raising AK against three crappy limpers would just be terrible IMO.
-James

[t_petrosian]

Can someone explain what UTG means! And don't call me a complete idiot for not knowing... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[t_petrosian]

It occurs to me that if you already have 5 limpers, you have a decent amount of money in the pot already. Considering that, I think it makes sense to then raise them all. If anyone hangs around after that, more power to you, since you probably have the better hand. If they all fold, then you won a decent pot with 6BB in there. The fact of the matter is, however, I would prefer to be head-up or close to it with AK, regardless of position, than up against 5 players.

[NoChance]

UTG = under the gun (first player to act)

[gunboat]

[ QUOTE ]
In your example where both an A and K were out against 5 limpers(this is unlikely but certainly plausible) your raise is EV neutral. On average, in unraised pots, you will be against less than 2 of your outs, making this a clearly +EV raise in itself.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't do probability calculations, but with 5 limpers I would expect to be against two or more of my outs over half the time. And if its only one, that means you only dominate one of the limpers. With just one of your outs in the field, you can still be a dog to suited connectors and unsuited broadway connectors when the field is this large.

pokenum -h ah kd - ad 6s - 4c 5c - qd jc - th 9h - 7s 7d
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Ah 117616 17.87 536094 81.47 4298 0.65 0.182
6s Ad 39334 5.98 614376 93.37 4298 0.65 0.063
5c 4c 124398 18.91 533258 81.04 352 0.05 0.189
Jc Qd 121475 18.46 536181 81.49 352 0.05 0.185
Th 9h 133539 20.29 524117 79.65 352 0.05 0.203
7s 7d 117348 17.83 540308 82.11 352 0.05 0.178

Of course, in a field this large, there will most likely be a couple of REAL crap hands. Perhaps enough to make the raise +EV.

Does anyone have enough pokerstat hands that would give a meaningful number here? Probably not, but maybe if we combined everyone's stats....hmm, that would be an interesting project.

[Doc JS]

Player on the immediate left of the big blind...

[morello]

Curious,

How do you play your AK when it misses the flop and you're first to act vs 5 others in this situation? If you bet the flop and the turn doesn't help, (and say 2 opponents called the bet on the flop), do you put another bet out on the turn?

Basically, at what point are you willing to let the hand go in to the muck?

[John Feeney]

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but I'll say I think automatically raising in this spot is typically justified with "fair share" arguments. But I believe the application of the fair share concept is not nearly as cut and dried as its advocates often seem to suggest. There are many times when you can expect your EV to be greater by sacrificing immediate profit (based on fair share) on this round in the interest of greater profit to be had on later rounds and the hand as a whole. Winning the pot somewhat more often, for instance, can mean quite an increase in EV.

[PDosterM]

I think you have to be careful with AK in the big blind when you don’t hit the flop against a large crowd. I’m willing to lead if I flopped a 4-outer nut straight draw, but leading into 5 opponents with no flop help seems overly aggressive. I prefer to check-fold the flop for several reasons:

1) I’m out of position for the entire hand,
2) Against 5 opponents, I am probably beat, and many times peeling off an A or K still doesn’t win.
3) Being raised is a distinct possibility, and I would surely have to fold to one.
4) I like my opponents to know I will check a poor hand so that when I do come out firing (against fewer opponents) I am given more credit.
5) Future check raises will work better as well.

If I did choose to lead on the flop, (say with an inside straight draw) and the turn is poor as well, I’m done.