Just Calling with AK on the Big Blind

[pokeryogi]

Let me try this one...
You don't raise with AKo or AQo in BB of a loose passive game, because your making the pot big enough (cuz they will all call) to make it more correct for your thin drawing calling stations to call subsequent bets. You want them in position to incorrectly call.

Still learning,
PY

[Tosh]

AK is only a drawing hand against a pair. Say your opponents hold JT, 78s, Axs and KT in this position. They are drawing to beat you not the other way around. I don't raise AJo with these limpers but AK and AQ certainly.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
i could care less about what people think about "always" and "never". i always try to do what i believe is the most profitable, and i think checking in the big blind here is never correct. i'm not trying to win a prize for being cool with my enviable chameleon-like adaptive preflop strategies, i'm trying to win chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahah, whatever works, brother. i respect u enough to say that you make a very good point. i will try it some times.

but as "cool" as i am, i standby my blieve of "never say never". u sure u get more +EV? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Kenny

[James282]

Bad players will call with ubiquitous draws regardless of whether or not you raise preflop or not. Can you make up 2 SBs with deception postflop? Possibly. In certain situations you are also much further ahead than in this example and in certain situations you are not quite as ahead. The problem with planning for a check-raise is that it only works if people cooperate. What if it's a bet and a raise by the time it gets to you? Raising lets you take control and start kicking ass. It only depends on you. If you have a very good grip on your opponents you can try to be deceptive, but I think that the majority of the time you will be ahead enough that you might as well raise preflop.

On an important note, this raise becomes more correct the worse the players are. This is because you will be even further ahead in a lot of examples because your opponents won't need what 2+2 books consider playable hands. The better the players are, the more deception will be useful. You don't need to deceive stupid players. Something to think about.
-James

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't need to deceive stupid players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's get out our highlighters.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
On an important note, this raise becomes more correct the worse the players are. This is because you will be even further ahead in a lot of examples because your opponents won't need what 2+2 books consider playable hands. The better the players are, the more deception will be useful. You don't need to deceive stupid players. Something to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily know that that's true. To provide two somewhat contrived examples:

1) http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b...+Jh%0D%0AKs+Ts

2) http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b...+8s%0D%0A9s+2s

One reason that AK is so powerful is because it dominates other "decent" Ax and Kx hands; against very bad players who will come in with much less than that it will get outdrawn more often.

[gunboat]

From twodimes

[ QUOTE ]

Kc Ad .232
7s 7h .212
6d 5d .205
Ks 9c .049
Qh Jh .240
9s Jc .063


[/ QUOTE ]

twoddimes is a great resource. I use it myself. However, it is only a beginning of the analysis. From the above it is clear you want to get as much money into the pot - IF the action were to stop right there. Unfortunately, the action does not stop there.

There are 3 more betting rounds and you are out of position for the rest of the hand.

Now we all know that late position = +EV and early position = -EV. A complete analysis would include the -EV from being EP for the rest of the hand. Does the -EV from position overcome the +EV of the hand? My gut feel is that this is one of those decisions which is so close that either choice can be considered correct.

That said, you should raise about half the time so the more intelligent opponents will not always put you on big PP when you raise in the BB. Same for AKs, AQu, AQs which I would also put in the category of a very close decision to raise or check. The only reason for choosing one over the other is to vary your play.

[James282]

Ax and Kx are crappy hands unless they are suited, but regardless your crappy players are going to be playing FAR more crappy As and Ks than decent players. Bad players aren't going to fold these hand...and good players that play As and Ks probably play ones with other paint, and are likely raising with them preflop. Bad players also call when they miss(or with backdoor flush draws, etc) so the time to start charging them is preflop. They will make plenty of bad mistakes postflop whether you raise or not, so let's get the money in.

Also, in both of your examples, it's still correct to raise preflop. The example with AJ I think is unlikely because a lot of players raise this preflop so you don't need to make that first raise.
-James

[James282]

Hey gunboat, your assessment is correct that early position is -ev. This chart shows that you are likely to win abuot .23 bb for each bb that goes into the pot right now, so you are getting your money in with enough of the best of it to make it +EV preflop. If you play poorly postflop you will lose money, not because of your correct preflop raise.
-James

[HajiShirazu]

I'm sure there's probably a ton of value in raising AK from the BB and that's a reason to do it too, but the reason why I raise AK/AQ/JJ and some of the big suited hands is because if I only raise with big pairs from the blinds, that's being just too predictable. I am bad enough as it is.