Anyone protect their hand like this? (K7o in SB, just hear me out)

#1 10-17-2005, 12:58 AM

UTG+2 is 42/2/0.6 (143 hands)
MP3 is 40/8/0.7 (25 hands)

This is a party beginner table, so the table average VPIP is about 35 and people are calling to the river in small pots with bottom pair. Also, since the entire table limped in (minus one player sitting out) I thought that completing my small blind with K7o might not be terrible.

On the flop I have top pair bad kicker, so I figured I would check and see what developed. With a bet and a call from LP I thought there was a chance my hand was best, plus I had the backdoor flush draw. Is the flop raise good?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (9 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises ???

Aaron W. · #2 10-17-2005, 01:07 AM

Good raise. Remember. When you are raising to protect your hand by giving them improper odds to call to chase (as would be the case here getting 5:1 on a 5-out draw), you are rooting to get called. This sounds like the perfect table to root for calls.

MrWookie47 · #3 10-17-2005, 01:12 AM

nh. Ed Miller would be proud. It'd be nice if CO had folded, but you can't always have the perfect situation.

PokerSparky · #4 10-17-2005, 01:18 AM

Nice hand. I'd like for MP3 to be a bit more aggressive post-flop to feel totally comfortable with my hand (CO folding would have been nice too), but this is a must raise IMO.

#5 10-17-2005, 08:00 AM

Grunching...

I don't like completng SB here. With so many other opponents, the chances that someone has a better K, an A, or a pocket pair are HUGE! You have very little pre-flop pot equity and very few post-flop srategy options. Flopping TPPK is just an invitation to lose money. You only really a few outs (even with with the non nut BDFD) If you're gonna play it, see the showdown as cheaply as possible - but I don't think you should have played it in the first place.

I don't normally give tough love, but I used to make this mistake quite a bit. You see the K and think I'm getting a discount on my call because I'm SB. If it were suited - play it. If it were only 2 limpers, maybe play it...othewise - dump it.

Edit: I've just read Aaron and Wook's posts so take my advice as from only a humble newbie. Aaron & Wookie: What did I miss?

Fantam · #6 10-17-2005, 09:14 AM

I am not wild about completing preflop from the SB with K7o either.

However....when the bet and call on the flop come from late position, it becomes more likely that your hand might be best. MP3 and CO might be betting flush or straight draws, a lower pair than yours or even Kx with a weaker kicker.

You still have 5 players to act after you, and your flop raise will probably give most of those players unprofitable odds to call. So by eliminating them, you improve your chances of winning the hand.

#7 10-17-2005, 10:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like completng SB here. With so many other opponents, the chances that someone has a better K, an A, or a pocket pair are HUGE!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you here, loyalguard. I don't think I've ever completed the SB with K7o before. But since the table was so loose, I think I actually have more than my share of pot equity (given that I was getting 17:1 odds preflop). I'm not sure what the odds are of being up against a better king, but they're probably high.

Here's the rest of the flop action:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (9 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero ?

In this hand I actually went for the check-raise again because I figured that if I bet out everyone would still be getting odds to call with bottom pair and gutshots. But is it better to just bet out after facing the field with 6.5:1 pot odds on the flop?

imported_The Vibesman · #8 10-17-2005, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (8.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero ?

In this hand I actually went for the check-raise again because I figured that if I bet out everyone would still be getting odds to call with bottom pair and gutshots. But is it better to just bet out after facing the field with 6.5:1 pot odds on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here I think you should just bet, you have no guarantee that anyone will bet this turn, esp. since you raised and did not get re-raised. There are too many possible draws out there to give a free card to.

#9 10-17-2005, 04:20 PM

Here's the rest of the action:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (9 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds.

River: (15.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Aaron W. · #10 10-17-2005, 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Grunching...

I don't like completng SB here. With so many other opponents, the chances that someone has a better K, an A, or a pocket pair are HUGE! You have very little pre-flop pot equity and very few post-flop srategy options. Flopping TPPK is just an invitation to lose money. You only really a few outs (even with with the non nut BDFD) If you're gonna play it, see the showdown as cheaply as possible - but I don't think you should have played it in the first place.

I don't normally give tough love, but I used to make this mistake quite a bit. You see the K and think I'm getting a discount on my call because I'm SB. If it were suited - play it. If it were only 2 limpers, maybe play it...othewise - dump it.

Edit: I've just read Aaron and Wook's posts so take my advice as from only a humble newbie. Aaron & Wookie: What did I miss?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right that K7o is a very modest hand. You can't assume that someone has a better king. And if you happen to be in a situation where you're the only one with a king, your implied odds are quite large because players love to chase funny draws and weak hands in big pots (not that it's always wrong for them to do so). Furthermore, there are enough players in the pot that if you happen to flop really well, you're more likely going to find someone who wants to give you action.

The real mistake with a hand like this is messing it up preflop. Leading out on this flop is a bad idea. The pot is big and everyone is right to chase you down. Checking to see what happens is far better and is +EV. In this case, Hero got almost the perfect situation because a late position player bet so that hero can check-raise effectively. Had an early position player bet, Hero would check-call and see the turn cheaply before deciding how to proceed. And if it's bet and raised in front, I have no problem ditching this hand.

If you are uncomfortable with your postflop play, it's better to stay out of this sort of situation. But as you get better, you can begin to play these hands and use your postflop playing edge to make up for your poor position and weak hand.