A7o Hand Nfinity and I Disagreed On

MrWookie47 · #1 11-08-2005, 03:04 AM

I have no good postflop read on villain. He was loose and quite passive. Stats at about 35/5/1 after 30ish hands. I hadn't noted anything extraordinary.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

What hands do you put villain on at this point?

Turn: (3.70 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

How about now?

River: (5.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

What's my plan?

KaiShin · #2 11-08-2005, 03:15 AM

Flop play is really odd. I'd likely put Button on TT-KK. He'd almost certainly bet with anything else that he would have 3-bet PF with, wouldn't he?

The turn I'm still thinking big PP. Hero's c/c is interesting, I likely would have bet out after Button's flop check, but I can see the merits of checking as well.

I'm bet/calling the river.

Edit: Well I didn't think out my original read a ton. KK should bet this flop, as should QQ, unless its a silly slowplay. Now I'm thinking more mid-large PP or KQ.

milesdyson · #3 11-08-2005, 03:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What hands do you put villain on at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]
AA, AK, AQ, KK, QQ, JJ, TT basically.

[ QUOTE ]
How about now?

[/ QUOTE ]
AA, AK, AQ, KK, QQ. JJ and TT are less likely but still possible. i don't like checking because i don't like calling, folding, or raising if he bets. if i bet i expect him to be bad enough to call down with KK, JJ, and TT, and if he raises, there goes the 1 bb i would have used calling him here anyway.

so i would bet the turn, fold to a raise. since you check called and now pulled ahead of AK, you should bet the river.

ignoring JJ/TT, you're behind:
AA (1)
AQ (6)
QQ (3)
(10 hands)

you're ahead of:
AK (8)
KK (6)
(14 hands)

and since he may not bet KK here, betting looks best.

SCfuji · #4 11-08-2005, 03:53 AM

bet the river but i think we can only call a raise since the passive guy will most likely be raising with more hands that we lose to than hands that we beat.

-fuji from japan

cold_cash · #5 11-08-2005, 03:54 AM

Hands I think he could have that might check this flop:

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, maybe TT. (I think he bets AK)

Hands I think he would bet the turn with:

AA, AK, KK, QQ probably JJ.

Hands I think he would bet the river with:

AA, AK, KK, QQ.

How 'bout check-raising and folding?

kapw7 · #6 11-08-2005, 04:19 AM

Hand reading is a good thing but sometimes it can trap you to make worse decsions. I don't care what hand he might have, I just bet my pair of aces. The way you played it: bet the river. If you check then this should be a check-raise.

Nfinity · #7 11-08-2005, 06:32 AM

I played this hand twice today the same way against a more aggressive opponent.

When an aggressive opponent checks this Flop through the first thing on your mind has got to be slowroll. With this guys passive post-flop stats you can't be sure. Such low stats indicate he is checking and calling when he should be betting and raising, but is he not betting his KK here when he should be or is he not betting his AQ here when he should be?

With that in mind I bet the turn, fully expecting to be raised so I can fold and get on with my life.

If in the above situation the villian just calls the Turn, or like your example where you check/ Call the Turn [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
bet/ call is in order when you river the 2 pair. Your behind now to AQ, QQ and A8, one of which is not part of his pre-flop 3-betting routine.

When he raises, expect to lose, but a donkish AK or AJ will pull through a bunch here.

Screaming AQ YOU TRICKY BASTARD!! while you call is, of course, optional.

WalkAmongUs · #8 11-08-2005, 08:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With that in mind I bet the turn, fully expecting to be raised so I can fold and get on with my life.

If in the above situation the villian just calls the Turn, or like your example where you check/ Call the Turn [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
bet/ call is in order when you river the 2 pair. Your behind now to AQ, QQ and A8, one of which is not part of his pre-flop 3-betting routine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this. Once the flop is checked through I bet/fold the turn. If called, I bet out again on the river.

I also think when putting your opponent on a hand you should take into consideration the fact that villain is on the button and may be putting you on a steal-raise. Thus he may have rereaised you with a weaker hand than normal or maybe a medium pocket pair like 66-99.

Villain may even have 88 and checked scared on the flop and then turned a set and bet out.

Thats why you should bet/fold the turn. I don't think he would raise this turn without having you beat and then you can safely fold.

Nfinity · #9 11-08-2005, 09:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With that in mind I bet the turn, fully expecting to be raised so I can fold and get on with my life.

If in the above situation the villian just calls the Turn, or like your example where you check/ Call the Turn [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
bet/ call is in order when you river the 2 pair. Your behind now to AQ, QQ and A8, one of which is not part of his pre-flop 3-betting routine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this. Once the flop is checked through I bet/fold the turn. If called, I bet out again on the river.

I also think when putting your opponent on a hand you should take into consideration the fact that villain is on the button and may be putting you on a steal-raise. Thus he may have rereaised you with a weaker hand than normal or maybe a medium pocket pair like 66-99.

Villain may even have 88 and checked scared on the flop and then turned a set and bet out.

Thats why you should bet/fold the turn. I don't think he would raise this turn without having you beat and then you can safely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the Turn so I can stop giving him cards to beat me with.

@bsolute_luck · #10 11-08-2005, 09:46 AM

donk the river. i have no problem how this hand was played so far.

5-handed: this guy is 3-betting with WAAAAY less than usual 3-betting hands. the flop check is odd, but people do this to avoid tricky bluff c/r with vulnerable hands that may still have showdown value and typically will either raise or fold to a bet on the turn whether or not they have the best hand whether for value, free showdown or to get you to fold simply because it smells like a monster.

he'll check behind a lot of hands on the river that will pay off a donk bet, but probably won't raise unless you're beat.