Theory post: Stop and go. Pot control OOP

[Maier]

I have been researching posts about stop and goes for some time now and I still find the posts to be largely uninformative and incompete. So, for my sake and the forums, I would like to have a post going over all of the benefits of stopping and going and the proper oppenants/situations to stop and go with. I can think of a few:

AA on a JT2 board after raising preflop with typical semi-aggressive players. You bet the flop OOP, he raises, you call. On a blank turn (7 or lower or a T), you 1/2 pot it/fold to a raise (of course the decision being player dependent). If he calls, 1/2 2/3 pot river

Situation 2: Tournament short-stack, call preflop with AQ/AK or 99-TT with close to half your stack, bet the rest in the dark on the flop to gain some fold equity.

I would like to clarify when blocking bet on the river should take place. Do they usually occur when the board pairs on the river and when you have a hand you would probably call a pot bet with? For ex: a small flush on a Kc Qc Q 9c 2 board?


Lets get some discussion going. Critique above examples. what are are some more examples? List your merits, disadvantages, and reasons why.

[riverboatking]

against good players with deep stacks, blocking bets are a bad idea.

[kagame]

unless you never do it...then how could it be bad

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
against good players with deep stacks, blocking bets are a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do then?

[chuddo]

sometimes catch a lot of bluffs.

sometimes make blocking bets anyway with the possibility of calling a healthy raise with a moderate holding.

i believe that in that old thread of paul phillips where he crushed that one game he may have spoke about this, though i am not sure if i am remembering correctly.

[mgsimpleton]

probably the stop and go i use most often is OOP w/ an overpair i might bet 3/4-pot, then if called, check call turn and lead river (leading river means folding if raised). this obviously depends a lot on board texture, but it works especially well if you had an overpair, they were overplaying TPTK, and a draw completes in the end they're just looking to show down their hand, too.

i'll also take this line with a set very often, of course there i'm looking to get raised on the flop and hence the pot should be bigger so my river lead should be for most of my remaining stack. this is against good opponents who will lay down overpairs to too much aggression. a lot of peopl ewant to check raise the turn here and i think that has its merits but if the opponent is tight, they are less likely to call a turn raise than a larger river bet because, well, it's the last bet they have to call!

as for the AA bet/get raised thing... i like the line you presented a lot. this has many merits. one it slows down anything but two pair or a set on the turn. two it doesn't let people get a cheap draw by raising on the flop. in this case i'd likely lead a little more than half on the turn then maybe about half on the river, since half pot is more common for rivers and looks less like a blocking bet than if you did it on the turn. of course yes fold to aggression here.

all of these lines (Except the set), and most stop and go's involve folding to aggression. YOu have to make sure your opponent isn't one to take a lead as a sign of weakness, which many do, and pounce on that. This is why I like also doing it with sets sometimes and having your opponents know that you do that, which can be tough, especially online.

[Maier]

THe only question I have is about your first line.

It seems like it would be beneficial to lead the turn, normally with AA in a raised pot because it seems like most players have a hand to call a turn in that spot if they callled the flop. If it was an unraised pot, it seems like you;re either way behind on that turn or ahead and your oppenant doesnt like his hand, so check/calling the turn, leading the river seesm to extract more value. The only downside is if you are behind, check/calling, leading river costs you more money, and you likely wont draw to the best hand with just AA. Just a thought.

How is it a form of pot control?

On the turn, in the same situation, if you were going to bet/fold to a turn raise with AA anyway, how does check/calling theturn/betting the river keep the pot smaller??? It seems like unless you had an intention of calling a turn raise, it stays the same amount, but you miss out on a turn bet if he checks behind.

I would just like an explanation on how this is a subtle form of pot control and when/who to use it on.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I like to stop and go with draws quite often. Let's say I bet my flush draw, and get raised but not so much that I have to throw the hand away. If I brick the turn and am afraid that a check will get the opponent to make a bet I can't call, I'll bet roughly around what I would have been willing to call, maybe a bit less.
The good thing about this is that if you hit your flush, he won't be putting you on a draw necessarily. Also, if you brick the river you can reevaluate whether your opponent likes his hand, as it's easy to bluff in this spot sometimes because the line seems like one where you've been strong the whole way down.

[KaneKungFu123]

River blocking bets are good when a scary card hits the river.

Say you have KK in blinds against an ultra-tight MP Raiser.

The Flop is 4-5-T

You check, call.

Turn 9

You check, call.

River 3

You bet 1/2 Pot.

In general, I dislike blocking bets on the flop because they are begging to be bluffed at.


"AA on a JT2 board after raising preflop with typical semi-aggressive players. You bet the flop OOP, he raises, you call. On a blank turn (7 or lower or a T), you 1/2 pot it/fold to a raise (of course the decision being player dependent). If he calls, 1/2 2/3 pot river"

Id rather just reraise the flop. I dont want to give a free card on the that board. If the board read J 7 2, I would like your line, but still wouldnt fold AA too often without a read.

I think Sop N Go works best when you hit your hand.

LP raiser, you call in BB w/22.

Flop 2 6 T rainbow

You check-call and lead the turn.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, I dislike blocking bets on the flop because they are begging to be bluffed at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Maier,

I will comment on the flop bets as I feel thats the most important and most common area.

I'm a big fan of leading into the PFR with hands like 88 on T52 - hands that may well be best but would be too expensive and dangerous to check-call or even check-raise.

Now, start doing this with flush draws, straight draws, pair+draws, sets, and occasionally nothing.

Your opponent is going to have a very hard time playing against you; now he will be the one playing scared.

Good luck.