Trying to help a fellow player - feedback please!

[John Biggs]

Anyone still listening should read this if they haven't already:

http://www.loukrieger.com/articles/morton.htm

[sucka]

What is more important to you, your friendship or his poker?

I know you can't begin to know what type of relationship I have with this individual, and I don't expect you too. Let it be said that he and I are very good friends and no disagreement about how he should play poker would ever infringe on that. Period.

[ropey]

I haven't read Morton's theorom, but let me quote you Ropeys Theorem...

I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'dog'...if you are using it like i think you are, than Pocket AA's are a 'dog' with a field of 10...but even if you don't win but 30% of the time, you are still the favorite to win the hand.

When you are ahead on the flop with AK or AQ with your top pair, even though you will lose more frequently the more players that are in the pot...you are still the favorite...not a 'dog'.

-ropey

[Redhotman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll get right to the point...

I have a good friend who has the potential to be a very skillful poker player. He has been playing the game for a couple years, and to the best of my knowledge has read HEPFAP and a few other S&M books. How well he's fully absorbed the content remains to be seen. I'd like to forward this post to him after I get some feedback from hopefully some of the heavyweights here (if he doesn't find it himself), so I would appreciate anyones candid comments.

In short, I think he has some real fundamental misunderstandings of how to play in certain games - particularly low limit party poker games. In a conversation we had earlier today I think I've somewhat brought him back from the dark side - but not entirely sure. I am hoping that some good feedback here will provide him with some information that he can use to continue to improve his game.

Just a bit of background:

He and I and another friend have recently started playing a little for fun online. We've all been playing awhile - a couple of us probably a bit more than him in the last year or so. With a 4 month old son, I don't get a chance to play much now - and when I do, it's mostly tournaments on Party which fortunately have been fairly lucrative for me.

Last night we all get on Party and get into the same game. Mind you, we are not colluding - we absolutely do not discuss the hand while someone is involved. We will comment on each others play and some of the antics that go on at the table but we absolutely do not discuss live hands or reveal hole cards.

We get into a .5/1 game that's pretty loose until we've played a couple of rounds and then it tightens up slightly but we are all still getting plenty of action. The following hand comes up which creates quite a bit of controversy and we continue to discuss it all night. Today, this particular hand was the root of our discussion - but we veered into other poker related topics as well.

I wish I had a hand history as I'm not 100% sure as to the how the action went - but basically our hero is in LP with 89o. 6 players limp and the player to our hero's right raises. Our hero cold-calls 2 and the rest of the table calls, of course. The raiser was our other friend who held KK. Not sure of the board and action (it doesn't matter anyway) but our hero ends up winning the pot. Obviously, we have quite a bit of discussion about cold-calling raises with marginal hands, etc...

In our conversation today, we discussed this hand and others and he readily agreed (after some emailing today with some math on how hosed he was and how he absolutely should not have been in that pot) that this was a very loose call and a long term -EV play. This particular session, he saw 40+% of the flops and attempted several bluffs against calling stations. Granted, this was his first time to play real money micro limits on Party - but he knew that the players were very loose and many were textbook calling stations. At our first table he lost his entire buy-in ($25) in less than an hour and a bit of his rebuy before we all ended up changing tables where he made a little of it back catching on those 'lucky' hands.

In our conversation his philosophy in playing the low limit games online was that he should be seeing a lot more flops (said in the 30% range on average) and getting himself in position to outplay his opponents post-flop. While fundamentally I can't disagree with this philosophy there are many other things that factor into this equation.

I think the crux of his problem was the he felt like he was getting good odds to cold call a bet here and that his implied odds were good because if he hits his hand all the calling stations will pay him off. While I certainly don't disagree that if he hits his hand some monkey will pay him off - that still is no reason to piss away money cold-calling with unsuited connectors hoping that you catch a straight draw. Of course, this biggest issue here is that if you continue to make bad calls like this you WILL NOT make your hand enough times and/or get paid off when you do to make this a +EV play.

He also mentioned that he doesn't think that it's correct to play 'textbook' poker in the low limit games because "Your missing out on a lot of money". Clearly, a very fundamental thinking error there. We had a pretty heated discussion on this. I made it very clear to him that in low limit games it is absolutely essential to play textbook poker. Often times you are simply playing how the math tells you to play. It can be as boring as watching paint dry but the plain and simple truth is - when you are playing at these lower limits you HAVE to make a hand to win. Your not going to be able to do much in the way of 'fancy play' and work your opponents out of the pot. You play it 'tight and right' and get money in with your good hands and let the calling stations pay you off when you hit hand. I told him to save his 'fancy play' for when he moves up to $20/40 and is playing against opponents that are actually capable of folding what is likely the best hand. For some reason that I don't understand - he had a difficult time agreeing with that philosophy and continues to think that he's losing money if he doesn't see more flops.

I also mentioned to him that it's easy to get busted up limping with crap. I used an example of coming in with J8s with a near family pot. The flop comes Jack high and you go crazy check raising and what not but can't shake one of the calling stations who tables AJo on the river to scoop. The problem with the low limits is that people often limp with hands that have you dominated and in many cases these players won't save you any money because they never let you know that you are probably beat. In the end, you limp with cheese and flop the worst case scenario for you and lose money on a hand you should have never been involved with in the first place.

Of course we discussed odds and what not and I tried to explain to him that when you enter a pot against a raise with hands that are all long term losers you will never get paid off enough on the ones that you win to compensate for all the weak limps and cold-calls you sacrificed trying to hit those in the first place.

My basic advice in these games was to play a solid game - just because it's LL doesn't mean that you do what all the other monkeys do and piss your money away with crap hands out of position prelfop and then try to bully them around later in the hand. Save your money and get money in the pot with good hands. Ram and jam when you have strong draws and in general just play a solid game. Sure, a lot of what you'll read in some of the 'books' isn't going to apply to some of these games. You should see a few more flops than you would in a tighter game for certain but good post flop play usually means folding top pair with a crap kicker when you bet it early get called in 4 places then someone raises.

Anyway, I hope this provides enough information so that some of you might comment and give some additional advice. I'm not trying to hammer on this guy as he is a very good friend of mine. I just want him to know that he's making some very fundamental errors here and know that with a little push in the right direction he can make a little money in these games.

I've reiterated to him several times a couple gems that I've read here over the years:

I know Mason and several others have said the following:

"You should be cold calling so infrequently that you can't even remember the last time that you did so".

And a Clarkmeister gem:

"Coldcalling raises with medium and small suited connectors is the fast track to the poorhouse. Yes, even with 3 others in the pot."

Thanks to all of you who actually made it through this post.


[/ QUOTE ]
I only made it half way through. I think you and your friend's poker game could use some help (not being a jerk, i also need help).

One thing i can say...When they are playing loosely you should tighten up.

[lil']

PLEASE read Morton's Theorem, then come back and post again when you've thought it through. I believe if you search the Web you'll find not only the original theorem, but discussions of it by Mike Caro and others.

I've read it before, and I've read Caro's discussion on it as well. And I've thought it through, and the majority of the people here who have posted in this thread have too. I have read it and I agree with majorkong that the effect is overstated. And it's OK if we don't agree, really.

We've had lots of posts here before on this topic that you might want to check out. I'm sure they stretch back for years.

[Ed Miller]

Please, class, repeat after me

If you expect anyone to respect what you have to say, you should avoid being condescending.

[Ed Miller]

Another guy who can't be bothered to read Morton's Theorem...

And I'm not talking about "schooling" when I bring up Morton's Theorem. Have you read it yet?

*shrug*

You've ignored everything I said in my post and treated me like a two year old. What more can I say?

[sucka]

I think you and your friend's poker game could use some help (not being a jerk, i also need help).

Wow - that's some great advice. Poker players that need to work on their game. Very insightful, thanks.

When they are playing loosely you should tighten up

What? In what games do you play hands like Axs and Kxs? Are you telling me that in loose/passive games you shouldn't expand your starting hand requirents and play more speculative hands that can potentially make monsters? Thanks for the post - but your wasting people's time with that mess.

not being a jerk, i also need help

I don't think you are being a jerk - but I would certainly concur with the latter part of that statement. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[sucka]

but even if you don't win but 30% of the time

Against a field of 10 - 30% is about the percentage that your AA will hold up, statistically speaking, anyway (as opposed to 85+% heads up for example). That being said - it's still a higher % than any of the other hands that are in the pot with you at that particular time. Therefore you are NOT a 'dog' - at least pre-flop. When the flop comes, it's an entirely different story.

[ropey]

My point exactly.
-ropey