The biggest leak ?

[Stuey]

I was rereading Ed Miller's biggest leak post and wanted to know what most players consider the biggest leak. What leak is the hardest to notice? Which leaks are the most difficult to fix? Below is a poll although it is likely lacking in accuracy and over simplified. Please post your reasons and add any important areas I have overlooked.

[einbert]

If you look at the posts in these forums it won't be too hard to tell, most people have the biggest problem with misplaying overcards after the flop.

If you want to look at a leak in terms of frequency*cost, the frequency is certainly incredibly high. The cost of misplaying these hands can be big too.

[guitarhero14]

misplaying overcards. I am trying to learn.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
If you look at the posts in these forums it won't be too hard to tell, most people have the biggest problem with misplaying overcards after the flop.

If you want to look at a leak in terms of frequency*cost, the frequency is certainly incredibly high. The cost of misplaying these hands can be big too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree with this. It's also hard to learn how to play missed overcards well postflop. The other leaks like playing to passive in big pots or folding to much on the river can big huge leaks but they are easier to fix.

[the_rookie]

I just read the article about "Opposite man" in the magizine from March, and yeah I think playing overcards is a hard concept to grasp. Back to SSH I go....

[KingOtter]

The biggest leak in our (2+2'ers) opposition is going too far with marginal hands. Read SSH, HEPFAP... it's all over the place. Ed constantly describes the great unwashed as people who see too many flops, and go to far with them.

That's how I read your question... what are their biggest issues, so that's how I answered.

Concerning what is the typical starting 2+2'ers greatest leak... that's hard to say because people come from all directions. I've read posts from guys who started out too tight, and SSH loosened them up. I've read posts from guys who were LAG until they read SSH. Perhaps an 'all of the above' option would have been good.

I was lucky... I got into SSH and 2+2 about 3 weeks into my real-money poker career, so I don't have much of an experience outside of it.

My biggest issue right now is being able to play with LAGs, and both hanging on too long to a hand, and folding too soon. I pendulum swing back and forth between holding on too long and folding too soon. Sooner or later I'll find a steady ground there.

KO

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
If you look at the posts in these forums it won't be too hard to tell, most people have the biggest problem with misplaying overcards after the flop.

If you want to look at a leak in terms of frequency*cost, the frequency is certainly incredibly high. The cost of misplaying these hands can be big too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a quote from Ed Miller's post that changed my mind.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll grant you medium leak. But people overestimate the size of that particular leak because of the nature of overcards.

They are a high variance proposition even when played correctly. Most of the time you play your overcards, you will end up losing an extra bet or two. Occasionally you pick up a pot by playing them correctly. So after people lose ten overcard hands in a row, they sometimes tend to say, "I'm just throwing my money away on these damn overcards." That thought gets people to, "Maybe I shouldn't raise preflop in the first place so I wouldn't feel so tied to them after the flop. Then I could just fold correctly like I want to."

To some extent, they are like 16 against a 10 in blackjack. People wrack their brains about how to play that situation... and the reality is that it doesn't much matter what they do. Hitting and standing are pretty close. The reason they think so hard is because no matter what they do IT'S GONNA TURN OUT BADLY. There's no way to turn 16 against a 10 into a rosy situation.

Same thing with overcards. Generally with ace-king, you will have raised preflop so the pot is usually big enough to take one off on the flop. But people think it's such a tough decision because no matter what you do, it's not gonna be pretty. You went from excellent starting hand to very marginal situation in two seconds.

You are usually gonna lose when you flop overcards. That causes people psychologically to draw the mistaken conclusion that their play of overcards is a much bigger money loser than it probably actually is on average.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way. NO ONE plays ace-king, suited or offsuit, poorly enough to turn it into a net long-term money loser. No one. The hand is too good.

Edited by Ed Miller (Sun Jul 25 2004 08:28 PM)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he was refering to all overcards not just AK and AKs.

[einbert]

That Ed Miller post is true. Well I think it's always hard to spot your own biggest leak, or else it would be very easy to correct it.

If you put a gun to my head right now and asked me my own biggest leak, I'd tell you that it's probably misplaying my hands OOP HU after the flop, and knowing whether to call down after getting raised on the turn or river with a medium strength hand in a medium sized pot. Those things occur pretty frequently in the 3/6 game, and I think they could be pretty costly when frequently misplayed. Not sure how much I misplay them as opposed to play them correctly, but I know that I frequently don't know how I should have played a hand until long after the hand is over.

Probably each 2+2er has his own leaks, some are too aggressive and some are too tight, and it's a matter of getting to that perfect medium. So then the biggest leak overall is pretty damn hard to say, no?

Oh I just thought of a possibility. Not playing enough hands before the flop. Now that could be it.

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I think it's always hard to spot your own biggest leak, or else it would be very easy to correct it.


[/ QUOTE ]

This might be the most important thing to remember and work towards. And reminds me of Alan N. Schoonmaker's article which lead me to search for my true biggest leak and focus on fixing it.

[DocMartin]

Marginal! What do you mean marginal? I can call that raise, my 65s has a backdoor straight AND backdoor flush draw!