An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions

[David Sklansky]

The following point applies only to some religions and their strict followers. I don't claim to know specifically which ones.

There are people who believe in religions that claim that those people who know of the major precepts of their religion, yet do not to believe in them, will be treated less well by God. Perhaps MUCH less well. This includes not only atheists and agnostics but also believers of other religions.

They also believe that God would not treat someone less well for purely random reasons. In other words if someone espoused the opinion that the religion in question's precepts was less likely to be correct than the combined probabilities of all the other religions, religions not yet thought of, and no God at all, God would have a legitimate reason to be upset with that person.

In other words in order for it to be just that God punish these non believers (of the specific religion in question) in any way, there has to be some BASIS for these people to believe that the specific religion in question was at the very least more likely than not, to be a better description of truth than all other religions plus non belief combined.

I say the above because I don't think strict practitioners and believers of a certain religion would welcome into their flock someone who said something like "I am an Episcopalian because I believe that there is a nine percent chance that its precepts are true and the probabilities I give other religions add up to to 84%, none higher than Episcopalianism, and I make Atheism about a 20-1 dog."

But there are plenty of people who feel approximately this way. And plenty others who are convinced in the accuracy of the precepts of a different religion other than the one in question. This means that the practitioners of the one in question, a religion remember that believes that there is a downside to not believing their stuff (and that believes that God won't punish capriciously), must also believe that those who don't believe in their religion are making a clear mistake. A mistake that could be corrected if they got rid of their biases, or thought a little harder, or learned a little more. But the mistake must in some way be their fault. Otherwise how would it be right to punish them in any way for that mistake?

To believe that God is unhappy with those who don't believe in a specific religion that is supposedly the true one, it is necessary that those who do believe in it do not merely say that they hope they are right or have an unshakable feeling they are right. After all those who believe in other religions can say the same thing. If believers of religion A think that believers of religion B will be sent to hell by a just God, it is necessary that they believe that an OBJECTIVE examination of the evidence should lead you to believe that religion A is more likely to be accurate than all the other competing theories, plus those yet to be espoused, combined.

It is important to understand that it is only these religions and their strict practioners that I personally have a serious problem with.

[Exsubmariner]

God (or the concept thereof) evolves with the human mind. Religions, as all other institutions, that are intractable perish and so do their gods. In terms of journey of the individual soul, I can only speak for myself. I have travelled over much of the globe in my time. I have seen men use any and every excuse including their religion to do the evil that is in them. I have been subjected to unbridled bigotry by the mere fact that I am an American, much less my skin color or that I was raised a protestant. Some people are shackled by the belief systems they are taught from birth. Others overcome them. I chose not to be shackled by a religion for many of the reasons that you state. I have found it to be a near useless tool in my quest for understanding the universe and the man I am.
I feel God will understand. I feel most of humanity will not. But they don't really count in this do they? I believe truely that God, if he even cares judge me, will judge me by my actions and by my heart and I doubt he will care what alter I kneel at or whose collection plate I fill, if any. If he does not, than he is not God.
Why you grapple with this and post so much about it I don't know.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
I say the above because I don't think strict practitioners and believers of a certain religion would welcome into their flock someone who said something like "I am an Episcopalian because I believe that there is a nine percent chance that its precepts are true and the probabilities I give other religions add up to to 84%, none higher than Episcopalianism, and I make Atheism about a 20-1 dog."


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You are a fun man.

I hope you plan on continuing to post about religion, as your posts are informative and insightful. Plus the subtle humor is precious.

And most of the responses are transcendental.

-Zeno

[PairTheBoard]

DS:"If believers of religion A think that believers of religion B will be sent to hell by a just God, it is necessary that they believe that an OBJECTIVE examination of the evidence should lead you to believe that religion A is more likely to be accurate than all the other competing theories, plus those yet to be espoused, combined."


I don't think this follows. I think they would say that it is the Holy Spirit that leads people to Faith rather than an examination of evidence. Once hearing the Good News of Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit moves you to believing. If the Holy Spirit moves within you and you reject it then you have chosen the hellish ways of evil. Since so many people remain unmoved by Preaching these days it makes me wonder if the Preachers are really preaching what they think they're preaching. The spirit that moves within me when I hear the arrogant pompous self rightous tone of a lot of preaching is certainly anything but holy. If people want to communicate the Good News of Jesus I suggest they get a lot more love, compassion, empathy, tolerance, understanding, balance, and charity into their pitch.

PairTheBoard

[KaneKungFu123]

david,

did you see the movie american history x?

if so did you like it? or was it over your head?

you should see it. it really makes you think with its powerfulness.

[ QUOTE ]
The following point applies only to some religions and their strict followers. I don't claim to know specifically which ones.

There are people who believe in religions that claim that those people who know of the major precepts of their religion, yet do not to believe in them, will be treated less well by God. Perhaps MUCH less well. This includes not only atheists and agnostics but also believers of other religions.

They also believe that God would not treat someone less well for purely random reasons. In other words if someone espoused the opinion that the religion in question's precepts was less likely to be correct than the combined probabilities of all the other religions, religions not yet thought of, and no God at all, God would have a legitimate reason to be upset with that person.

In other words in order for it to be just that God punish these non believers (of the specific religion in question) in any way, there has to be some BASIS for these people to believe that the specific religion in question was at the very least more likely than not, to be a better description of truth than all other religions plus non belief combined.

I say the above because I don't think strict practitioners and believers of a certain religion would welcome into their flock someone who said something like "I am an Episcopalian because I believe that there is a nine percent chance that its precepts are true and the probabilities I give other religions add up to to 84%, none higher than Episcopalianism, and I make Atheism about a 20-1 dog."

But there are plenty of people who feel approximately this way. And plenty others who are convinced in the accuracy of the precepts of a different religion other than the one in question. This means that the practitioners of the one in question, a religion remember that believes that there is a downside to not believing their stuff (and that believes that God won't punish capriciously), must also believe that those who don't believe in their religion are making a clear mistake. A mistake that could be corrected if they got rid of their biases, or thought a little harder, or learned a little more. But the mistake must in some way be their fault. Otherwise how would it be right to punish them in any way for that mistake?

To believe that God is unhappy with those who don't believe in a specific religion that is supposedly the true one, it is necessary that those who do believe in it do not merely say that they hope they are right or have an unshakable feeling they are right. After all those who believe in other religions can say the same thing. If believers of religion A think that believers of religion B will be sent to hell by a just God, it is necessary that they believe that an OBJECTIVE examination of the evidence should lead you to believe that religion A is more likely to be accurate than all the other competing theories, plus those yet to be espoused, combined.

It is important to understand that it is only these religions and their strict practioners that I personally have a serious problem with.

[/ QUOTE ]

[texasholdemnut]

anyone have an asprin?

[OrianasDaad]

Interesting post, as usual.

While I'm not a scholar, I don't know of any Christian religions that specifically say that the followers of another Christian religion will suffer punishements in the afterlife. I'm considering the dogma of a religion, and not the popular beliefs of their followers.

I know even less about non-Christian religions.

None of the religions has it exactly right. I'll wager on that before any specific religion.

Some people need religion as a structure to support their faith. This is basicly an irrational view, but people are, by and large, irrational beings.

The beliefs of any individual or organization or religion have absolutely no bearing on my life.

[purnell]

"Some people need religion as a structure to support their faith. This is basicly an irrational view, but people are, by and large, irrational beings."


I agree with this statement whole-heartedly. The nature of religion is to create a metaphor (myth) for that which we don't or can't understand. Most people feel better about the world when they "give in" to religion. It takes a certain bravery to say "I don't know, no one knows yet, maybe someday they will, maybe they won't, and that is cool with me".

Most folks are extremely uncomfortable with any uncertainty (which keeps them from growing, but that's another matter), and will jump through all sorts of cognitive hoops in order to avoid it. Some folks go so far with their imaginary banishment of uncertainty that they insist that their dogma is the only true dogma. These are the most fearful people of all, and rightly so, as they are intellectually the weakest.

The man who embraces the uncertainty of his universe and explores it to the best of his ability is the one who makes his "existence" "meaningful", IMO.

[RedManPlus]

[ QUOTE ]

If believers of religion A think that believers of religion B will be sent to hell by a just God, it is necessary that they believe that an OBJECTIVE examination of the evidence should lead you to believe that religion A is more likely to be accurate than all the other competing theories, plus those yet to be espoused, combined.


...is only these religions and their strict practioners that I personally have a serious problem with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your rather complicated question is easily answered:

(1)
You do not chose God.
God choses you to SUBMIT... and become a believer.
This is a core Christian teaching. 2 Th 2:13

(A person who places themselves on an equal plane with God...
Can be considered to have a psychological disorder).

(2)
All religions require an act of faith as a starting point...
The belief in certain basic principles...
That can NEVER be proven objectively.

For example, Christians must believe...
That Jesus was God and the Bible is the Word of God.
If you don't believe this... it all ends right there.

For example, Jews must believe...
That the Jews are God's chosen people...
And the Scriptures are from God.
If you don't believe this... it all ends right there.

(3)
God is just.

If you happen not to become a Christian for whatever reason...
There is still a fair standard for you. Rm 2:14-16.

Every man has a conscience "written on his heart"...
And you will be judged in the context of your conscience....
"On the day when God will judge men's secrets".

And the last point...
It's not easy...
But try not to confuse God with leaders of specific denominations.
All men are sinners.

Best of luck in your search for the truth.

rm+

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[USGrant]

blah blah blah...applying probability equations to theological questions is about the funniest thing I've ever seen.

David: you are the God of Poker, but you're no Kierkegard. I'd love to see you post more on poker pyschology than on Theology 101. Most people who play poker don't even calculate pot odds, do you expect them to calculate the odds of whether one religion is more "true" than another?