i raised with nothing?

i complete the bet on 3rd with (QK)K
10h calls, i give her hearts
a Q calls, not sure if Qs or 3 flush
a 7 calls
4th st,10 pairs door, everybody else gets blanks, i get J
10s bet, call, call, i raise, everybody calls
5th 10s get a 2, blank, blank, i get a 10
boards:
ThTs2c
Q74
7xx (sorry, cant recall)
(QK)KJT
10s check,check, check, i bet(at this point i knew i have top pair, and i hadnt seen an ace or 9)
all calls
10s get a heart, Q gets another blank, other hand blank, me blank
check to me , i bet
10s call, Q calls, garbage folds
river is checked to me, i missed badly, i check, 10s turn over flush (heart on 6th and 7th), Q rivered Qs up
after the hand 10s asks me what i was betting with, i tell her Ks and open end , she looks at me like im a madman and tells/asks me why i was betting with the last place hand?
am i crazy?

I'd ignore her comment -- you certainly had a playable hand. I don't like your fourth street raise because of your position -- once the other players have called in front of you, they probably won't fold to one more bet. Against the field, your kings are a drawing hand (as you saw on the river!), so I don't think you have a value raise here. Now, if you were immediate left of the bettor, a raise in mandatory to make lesser pairs call two cold -- then you might narrow the field for your big pair.

[AlanBostick]

Yes, you are crazy. When the tens bet out on fourth street and get two callers, it's a very good idea to lay down you unimproved overpair. (The jack might seem to have added straight possibilities, but one of your straight cards doesn't seem too live right now.)

[Andy B]

If someone asks what you were betting, avoid telling them if at all possible. All it can do is get you roped into conversations that you don't want to have, like this one. How were you to know that you had the worst hand (if indeed you did)? No one else showed any real strength, and the Ten you caught on fifth was beautiful. Not only does it give you an open-ender, but it makes it that much more unlikely that opponent has trip Tens.

If your opponent is to be believed, she must have had Tens and Deuces on fifth street to go with her three-card flush. I went to twodimes.net with the information you gave, and even if her hearts were completely live, you were actually the favorite on fifth street. Do not go around explaining to people why you were the favorite even though you only had one pair. You don't want people to play better, for one. For another, such discussions take people out of the gambling mood (hell, they take me out of the gambling mood). Strategy discussions at the table are bad for the game. Just tell them you thought your Kings (or better yet, pocket Fours) were boss or something.

On fifth, any card Nine or higher gives you a winner, and you have two chances to catch. A running pair on sixth and seventh also gives you a winner. If you catch, she has very limited chances to improve to beat you. She has only three full house cards (if she had two pair), and the runner-runner flush possibility adds a little value. You really do have the best hand on fifth. Of course, the other guys in the hand affect your equity, but from what you tell us, they don't affect it much. If the Tens had two pair and the Queen had one pair of Queens, the only way that the pair of Queens affects you is if he catches the case Queen while you make two pair. The Queens might catch a second pair and win, but you were going to lose to Tens-up anyway.

You played the hand fine. I probably would have just called on fourth street. Your raise isn't going to knock anyone out, unless the Tens three-bet. If the Tens three-bet, you're probably in deep trouble. After that, betting fifth and sixth is good, and checking behind on the river is probably best.

[Andy B]

"Crazy" is overstating it just a tad, don't you think? The poster doesn't say what the structure of this game is, but I'm envisioning a low-limit game against terrible players. In that case, I think that there is enough of a chance that he has the best hand on fourth street to continue. If either of the callers has a clue, that might be his cue to get out, and if both of them have a clue, that probably should be his cue to get out. I just don't encounter many thinking players in $2/4 and $3/6 games. Around $6/12 I start thinking about folding. At $15/30, it depends mostly on the callers. There are some dreadful players at the middle limits, too.

Alan, your posts are among the smartest here and you clearly have far more play knowledge and at higher limits than I. HOWEVER...if one folded overpairs in loose low limit games every time someone paired their door, you'd be losing $$$. As Andy says, people come with all kinds of stuff in these games, and betting a paired door is automatic for many of the more aggressive.

Andy, I also agree that discussing hands is a no go. If the person asking seems nice, I usually just laugh and say something like "well, I thought I was winning." If they are a jerk or are working me, I'll say something like "I thought my trip kings were good there".

[patrick dicaprio]

i presume this was a low limit game and not 15-30 or higher. i think that you shoudl ignore most comments from players who likely have no idea what proper strategy is.you know the 10's didnt have trips so at most you are likely up against two pair. betting is undoubtedly what i would have done and with an open ended draw you are a definite favorite. the only play i question is why to raise on fourth. there are situations where it is the right play. but in this situation you didnt have any reason to think that the tens did not have trips, so you dont wantto knock anyone out on fourth street.that way if you improve then you win a bigger pot.

if you made a free card play this isnt the best strategy but it has merits i suppose. then when you catch the four straight you still bet because you might have the best playing hand. but i question the wisdom of a free card play when you could get reraised,and probably wont get a free card if he has trips.

Pat

(author)
the 4th st raise was in fact a free card/take control raise
she could have had a set, but like i said, i put her on hearts immediately when she called on 3rd
i wasnt hoping for any folders, but i wouldnt have complained
i know its bad to limit your reads to one hand, but i didnt think she would call with split 10s, and she would have raised with As. also, im sure she wouldnt make it 3 bets without a set, so if she came with a reraise, id know i was in deep
game was 10-20-30 by the way

[Easy E]

I've rewritten this for my clarity:

THIRD STREET
(QK)K- completes bring-in
10h calls, hero assuming hearts *why, by the way, Anon? Because they didn't raise your K-high, assuming a steal by you, with (Tx)T?
a Q calls, not sure if QQ or 3 flush
a 7 calls

FOURTH
ThTs- bet
Q7off- call
7x - call
(QK)KJoff- raise
everybody calls

PAT "the only play i question is why to raise on fourth. there are situations where it is the right play. but in this situation you didnt have any reason to think that the tens did not have trips (PAT- I assume you meant "didn't think the TT was trips"?), so you dont wantto knock anyone out on fourth street.that way if you improve then you win a bigger pot"

This is where I had a question- I'm assuming from the hero's post that the 7x was 9 or less and unsuited (although he? is then making too many assumptions about what the "bricks" for the players are??)
I'm also assuming that the Jack was offsuit for the hero. So, hero has top pair, crippled straight 2-draw, one Q (probably 2) unavailable to pair. The hero is facing TT w/ presumed 3-flush... presumably QQ... along with some draw from 7x.

Why are you saying that you want to keep people IN on this pot? My (limited) understanding of stud was that you generally want to reduce opponents with overpairs, even IF you might be facing a better hand (trip T).... except with your strongest hands.
Don't you WANT to eliminate draws, unless they are obviously crippled, to prevent the Queens up from eventually beating you (much less the 10-high flush)?
Granted, in this situation we know that no one was getting out based on the raise, but so what?
Isn't the primary goal to win the pot now (on 4th or carryover to 5th) and NOT focus on building a bigger pot on a risker draw?

What did i miss here?

[Andy B]

It would be nice if he could eliminate players on fourth street, but no one is going to fold for one more bet. The only way that anyone is going to fold is if the Tens three-bet, in which case our hero is in deep doodoo. It is therefore unlikely that anything good will come of his fourth street raise.