QJs coordinated board - too passive or ok?

HouseCalls · #1 11-15-2005, 09:59 AM

First rotation - no reads

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (8 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

How aggressive should I have been here? It didn't feel like any hands that would beat me would be folding to a raise but it also felt pretty soft just calling along.
Hands that make you go "hmmmmmmm."

Koss · #2 11-15-2005, 10:05 AM

First off raise pre-flop. You can peel one on the flop, but I would fold the turn. You have 9 outs to improve but I'd probably give your hand around 6 because of the flush draw and the fact that you could be dominated or chop if you make the straight. The river is fine.

car ramrod · #3 11-15-2005, 10:18 AM

raise pf, fold the flop, fold the turn
the river is the only street that was played well.

#4 11-15-2005, 10:25 AM

*grunch*

The pot is small but I like just calling down until the third Q fell on the river and then I like the raise. I definitely think we are behind on the flop but with the draw to the nut str8 along with the pair of Q's I think it is worth calling.

#5 11-15-2005, 10:25 AM

i think you have to let this one go on the flop. you are up against 4 players and the board is very co-ordinated. Flush draws, straight draws, and two overcards. Your 10 outs (2Q, 4J, 4T) are most likely not clean...

You are getting 7:1, which means you have to find at least 7 clean outs (out of the 10) to justify the call

The pot is small, fold!

L

#6 11-15-2005, 10:39 AM

First off, I agree with folding the flop, given the tiny pot and dirty, dirty outs.

Having said that, why do we favour open-raising QJs from MP1? I consider QJs to be a fairly speculative hand, one with which I'd like to see the flop cheaply, and with more rather than fewer opponents. I suppose that its high card strength is okay, but do we win often enough with TP/MP/MK to justify the raise? Buying the button from MP1 is not too likely, especially in 0.10/0.20. What about JTs or QTs? Forgive me if I'm treading over familiar (or boring) ground, but I was surprised by this advice.

car ramrod · #7 11-15-2005, 10:49 AM

I don't know about .10/.20, but this is 7 handed. If there are already some limpers in the hand, then a limp is ok. But being the first one in, I open with QJs. It plays well multi way, so if everyone calls, no big deal, but if we can get a few folds, even better.

#8 11-15-2005, 11:04 AM

So do we have equity against a LP cold-caller or re-raiser, and maybe the BB? We might, but I'm guessing that it's a marginal edge. I agree that if I get a few cold-callers on board, then great, but I'm not that happy if I narrow the field considerably. I'm going to be missing my straight or flush draws most of the time, and if I don't catch a Q or J, my hand has little showdown value. And the jig is pretty much up if overcards hit.

I actually see this the other way around; that is, I'll raise if there are a lot of limpers already, for value, but I'd rather encourage limping by limping myself in EP.

WalkAmongUs · #9 11-15-2005, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about .10/.20, but this is 7 handed. If there are already some limpers in the hand, then a limp is ok. But being the first one in, I open with QJs. It plays well multi way, so if everyone calls, no big deal, but if we can get a few folds, even better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you open-raise QJs from MP1 at a full 10 handed game? I'm just wondering because I was thinking about tinkering with raising medium suited hands from an earlier position than I normally do. Usually with something like QJs or KJs, I'll open-raise no earlier than MP3.

I play 2/4 currently. I've also logged about 2,000 hands at 3/6. 3/6 will mess with you. I see 15/9/2 players raising with A7 offsuit from MP1. Blind stealing is taken to a new level there.

car ramrod · #10 11-15-2005, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you open-raise QJs from MP1 at a full 10 handed game? I'm just wondering because I was thinking about tinkering with raising medium suited hands from an earlier position than I normally do. Usually with something like QJs or KJs, I'll open-raise no earlier than MP3.

I play 2/4 currently. I've also logged about 2,000 hands at 3/6. 3/6 will mess with you. I see 15/9/2 players raising with A7 offsuit from MP1. Blind stealing is taken to a new level there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only play short hand, so I maybe a little aggressive. I probably would not raise QJs from MP1 in a full game. It's ok to do it in certain situations, or just to mix up your play a bit.