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#32
09-25-2005, 10:52 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
Four people are in the pot ahead of him with a raise, and blinds will call almost regardless of their hands because "the pot is big" so this is an automatic call in this spot with this position.
People wonder why the games continue to stay good when people are folding hands they shouldn't be with holdings like this... Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com 
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#33
09-25-2005, 10:57 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not very handy with poker stove, but I would guess that if we put the limper on a reasonable range of hands, the MP raiser on TT+, AJo+, ATs+, KQs, KQo, and the cold callers on any pair, any suited ace, any broadway (?) and medium sized suited no-gappers. [/ QUOTE ] a) I think you are giving the no-reads-on-him-raiser too much credit b) The problem many people have when they run these simulations is that they don't realize position isn't taken into account. I realize you are (properly) saying you should call with this hand, but position is so important and the numbers won't show that. If everyone has precisely 1 big bet in front of them, that would be another situation where everyone is going "all in" pre-flop with this 2 small bets. That isn't the case and this is limit hold 'em. Proper post flop play via position will make this profitable. And it's not close. Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com
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#34
09-25-2005, 11:05 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
If the flush is all you care about, you need approximately 15:1 to make your preflop call correct. [/ QUOTE ] Way over-simplified. When you flop no draw you get away cheaply. It's like you have two stages of implied odds. First you only continue past the flop when you get something worth playing. Second you get extra bets when you make your hand that you don't have to pay when you miss. In addition to the flush, you are also very likely to win when the board contains A2, 22, AA, 345, and it's still somewhat possible to win or split with a lone A. You can also flop one type of draw and then back door your way into one of the other winning situations. Finally there are those rare situations where you win a huge pot - flush over flush, flush vs. set, etc.
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#35
09-25-2005, 11:16 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
Not to mention that you need not even hit any of the board in order to win the hand.
The power of position. Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com
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#37
09-25-2005, 11:38 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
barron, i usually agree with you and i enjoy yout writing. however, this is a clear loser, calling a raise here (with trash). additionally, i did not think it was possible to overrate position, but you have. even with the button, A2s is just a bad call, you are to often dominated and won't win your share of pots to have a positive ev. but nothing wrong with disagreeing.
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#38
09-26-2005, 12:30 AM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
barron, i usually agree with you and i enjoy yout writing. however, this is a clear loser, calling a raise here (with trash). additionally, i did not think it was possible to overrate position, but you have. even with the button, A2s is just a bad call, you are to often dominated and won't win your share of pots to have a positive ev. but nothing wrong with disagreeing. [/ QUOTE ] You still have got to be kidding me. You keep making the same arguments. A2s is generally unplayable against a raise, but not in this case. I think you need to reread SSH.
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#39
09-26-2005, 12:55 AM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to reread SSH. [/ QUOTE ] Normally I don't like "appeal to authority" type arguments. But it's almost impossible to calculate all the possibilities here with such a versatile hand and so many opponents without some kind of simulation. So if Amulet wants to ignore the combined experience of Ed, his co-authors, and most of the good players on this forum who agree this hand is playable, you might have better luck trying to convince a brick wall.
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#40
09-26-2005, 04:09 AM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
People wonder why the games continue to stay good when people are folding hands they shouldn't be with holdings like this... [/ QUOTE ] Trust me, this is not the reason why games continue to stay good.
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