KQo against a PF 3-Bet

[sfer]

I would be shocked, Shocked, SHOCKED!!!-- [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]--if Ed does not advocate raising KQo UTG at your typical Party 2/4 table.

[sfer]

You'll get coldcalled by much worse hands much more often. Have you played Party 2/4?

[ErrantNight]

you'll get cold-calls from lots of horrendous hands... it's one of the easiest tells to pick up on of a fish... and it's a fairly common leak of otherwise decent players...

[J.R.]

Yeah, its not necessarily way behind because of the hearts, but I typed that more because the principle is the same in the sense that the optimal line involves both trying to extract the most while losing the least.

Why fold QQ/JJ/TT/AQ, and why get 3-bet by AK KK AK?

[joker122]

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Why not check-call, check-call and consider betting the river.


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exactly.

[J.R.]

Whereas in a way-ahead, way-behind situation where your hand is either good now or it isn't, but either way is unlikely to improved to the best hand by the river, here you are either way ahead or way behind with a significant draw (hearts) that may put you ahead even if you are not already.

yeah, its not nessecarily way behind unless he has A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K. you are roughtly 2:1 dog to a better hand without a flush redraw, which isn't way behind. But the principle is the same as in way ahead way behind spots (especially when the opponent is aggressive and will bet worse hands postflop, which seems a safe assumption here), that's why I said that. But why risk folding TT, JJ, QQ or AQ, or getting 3-bet by better hands. Its not how far behind you are on the flop v a better hand, but the bets you miss when you fold a hand with 2 or 3 outs, and the 3 bets that get put in on the flop when you are behind.

[DataMiner]

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You'll get coldcalled by much worse hands much more often. Have you played Party 2/4?

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My Small Stakes experience is exclusive to 3/6. If 2/4 is that much looser than 3/6 (especially with regard to cold calls), then go ahead and make that raise.

[HajiShirazu]

2/4 is much looser than 3/6.

[DataMiner]

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and if the difference is negligible anyway compared to how you play this hand post-flop... I'm inclined to disagree for the sake of the newbs who might be reading this (emphasis added)

[...]

i did take it up with S/M/M, hence my previous post... but thanks for pointing it out, as the following sentence is of equal importance:

"Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it."

So while you present an excellent argument for just calling... it's disingenuous of you to present it and then say "and SSH says not to argue about it!"

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If you're disagreeing for the sake of the newbs, then the following line, "Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it," is irrelevant. A newbie necessarily does not play "excellently otherwise."

[ErrantNight]

listen to yourself. are you being moronic/drunk, are you not paying attention, or did you not realize the quote about playing excellently was the next sentence in SSH?

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Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it," is irrelevant. A newbie necessarily does not play "excellently otherwise."

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now listen to SSH:

[ QUOTE ]
"Until you play excellently otherwise, just pick one option and go with it."


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Now, what are they saying again?

Oh yes... "UNTIL," as in... until such a time, as in... while you still do not, as in... while you are still learning to...

the point being that as long as you are not currently playing excellent post flop, just pick one or the other and frickin' run with it.

if a newbie played excellently otherwise, then you would be able to have a reasonable discussion about this topic based on table texture and how the hand played out postflop (and how it might have been different had you _________). however... the preflop decision is still, ultimately moot most of the time.

i happen to think most newbs who might susceptible to your advice are playing 2/4, which is still loose enough that playing KQo for a raise is a better default play than playing KQo on a limp... and that it's still better advice to tell newbs playing 2/4 that if they're at a table they recognize as "tight" they should find a new table.

EDITED TO ADD: this is even MORE true if they're playing 1/2, or lurking from any of the micro-limits.

my only other point in that message was that it's fine for you to offer compelling reasoning that disagrees with me, but it's disingenuous to make YOUR argument and then say it's not worth arguing because SSH said so...