Flop Decision (Foxwoods 20/40)

[J6o All In]

Foxwoods 20/40. I just sat down, but the game seems average. A few solid players, but mostly soft spots.

Solid UTG limps, and I limp in UTG+1 with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
two more limpers behind us, the small blind folds, and the BB raps.


5 to the flop for 5.5 SBs
Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB Checks, and Solid UTG bets out.

I fold.

My friend berated me about this hand, arguing that I probably mucked a winner, but here is my reasoning:

1) Solid player might have a better hand, specifically a better ace.

2) Even if I do have the best hand, there are a lot of cards that can make straights or flushes.

3) If I don't have the best hand, it could get raised behind me, and therefore my effective odds are much lower than my pot odds.

4) Plus, if I raise and get called, what happens if I get checkraised on the turn?

[Garland]

Solid players will bet out their JT or flush draws as well. I wouldn't give him credit for a better hand just yet.

Raise and find out where you're at, and hope he's not the tricky type (most aren't except for something like superdraws, like K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]). If he reraises the flop, call, see the turn and fold to the turn bet.

Even if he has a better A, you have outs to chop.

In addition, if you're going to limp A-mid-kicker...even suited in such early position and make a weak-tight fold on the flop like that, you really shouldn't play it at all.

In fact, given the description that a solid player limped UTG, you should properly place it in the muck preflop.

Garland

This call is insta-automatic-essential-easy-ABC whatever, and I can not believe there are actually people advocating a fold here. First of all, [SoBeDude] is getting over 3:1 [pot odds, meaning the pot contains three times as much money as his call costs]. So mathematically alone, that single decision (call or fold), lined up against the range of hands the ss is pushing here, its OBVIOUSLY +EV.

[jetsonsdogcanfly]

you can absolutely not play this hand in this position if you are going to fold that flop. The suited ace can be great to take down a big pot with, but you really that small suited bonus is very small, especially in limit poker.

Basically, that flop is one of the good flops for your hand. The probability of hitting a better flop (two pair, pair+four flush) is very small; that is, not big enough to justify the preflop call if you are not going to put any bets in on a flop with top pair + three flush.

[Emoney]

1. that's assuming too much just from the flop bet.
2. true, but you can fold it then. i wouldn't say it is so much so that you have less equity than one of those draws at this point.
3. this seems like a weak tight attitude. it can always be raised behind you.
4. fold UI. it's just one hand.

don't forget your backdoor draw to the nuts. i'm raising the flop to see where i am.

[Subfallen]

Lol, look at pg. 80 of HPFAP. And I quote:

"...suppose you hold A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. If a solid player to your right bets, a number of players are behind you, and there has been no raise before the flop, you should fold."

Arguably your backdoor draw shifts this one to a call, but it's close, and I probably fold myself.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol, look at pg. 80 of HPFAP. And I quote:

"...suppose you hold A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. If a solid player to your right bets, a number of players are behind you, and there has been no raise before the flop, you should fold."

Arguably your backdoor draw shifts this one to a call, but it's close, and I probably fold myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'd say that I think it's close without the backdoor draw, so folding would be pretty incorrect with the backdoor draw. A lot of that HEFAP advice is predicated on people limping and overlimping with stronger hands than they actually do limp with.

[Lestat]

The most important thing is to ask yourself why you played the hand.

[Lestat]

This is primarily when you're minding your own business from the big blind. If you're going to CHOOSE to play a friggin A9s after a solid UTG limps, then it's ridiculous to fold it!! What are you hoping to flop? 99X?

edit: Another exception might be if you've limped with QJs and the flop comes JT7 with two suits. Now if there's a bet in front of you, you have to think about folding. But my main point is that when you play an A9s after a solid limp, you can't be afraid of an ace after the limper in front of you bets an ace-high flop. If you are, then you shouldn't have played the hand in the first place.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
Solid players will bet out their JT or flush draws as well. I wouldn't give him credit for a better hand just yet.

Raise and find out where you're at, and hope he's not the tricky type (most aren't except for something like superdraws, like K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]). If he reraises the flop, call, see the turn and fold to the turn bet.

Even if he has a better A, you have outs to chop.

In addition, if you're going to limp A-mid-kicker...even suited in such early position and make a weak-tight fold on the flop like that, you really shouldn't play it at all.

In fact, given the description that a solid player limped UTG, you should properly place it in the muck preflop.

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto on every word.

Folding is weak-tight.

I don't like calling here. I want this hand heads-up.

So raise.