Party 2/4 stud8 people - lets talk about THIS player... and LAG it up?

[bigredlemon]

If you ever play 2/4 stud8 on party, you know exactly who this player is. This guy's name starts with a "K" and he plays 80% of hands. He's very unpredictable and wins a lot of pots. He will cap with the worst hand drawing almost completely dead, and somehow ends up winning. He'll also throw away his hand at completely random times. I used to think he's the luckiest player in the world, but after seeing him steadily win 20BBs/hr every single session, it makes me wonder whether there's a lot more to his style. He is clearly a winning player with his super LAG style, and I've probably given him more than $500 so far this month through suckouts like the one below.



This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about:


7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.88 SB)

Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7 (Kguy): xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.88 SB)

Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (3.44 BB)

Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

6th Street - (5.44 BB)

Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls

Villain wouldn't be checking tens or trips here, so I know the best hand he can have is at most tens up. He capped with open 99 and nothing else against my open QQs a few hands before.

River - (13.44 BB)

Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets___raises

Dumb raise?

Total pot: (19.44 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $74.75 | Rake: $3

Hero: [ Kd Ks 5c 2h 8d 5s Ac ] [ two pairs, kings and fives -- Ac,Kd,Ks,5c,5s ]

Seat 7: [ Jd 7s 4c 7c Ts Th Td ] [ a full house, Tens full of sevens -- Ts,Th,Td,7s,7c ]




He acts like this all the time, and usually gets payed off very well if he hits his outs. He wins a lot of small pots, and wins a lot of big pots too. I just counted threw my current session, and he either scooped or got half of about 35% of the pots. He usually sits down with 10BBs and turns it into 50BBs after just a few hours.

My usually strategy is the standard strategy used by most of the stud8 players here: play hands with 3 low cards and good scooping chances as well as big pairs in HU or sometimes 3way scenarios. If I completely brick my low drad and someone else hits will, I usually fold 3rd if the pot wasn't raised, and maybe peel one off if the pot was big and all my outs are live for one bet but not two. I usually play big pairs aggressively, but will throw them away on fifth if someone catches scary on 5th. This strategy seems wholly inadequate against this Kguy. It's left me with a to 4th of 20% and a win rate of around 5% to 10% depending on how I'm running.

The first few weeks, I thought it was just bad luck suckouts, and that his luck will eventually catch up with him and I will make it back, but now I'm wondering if his aggressive style is a lot akin to how Doyle Brunson dominates holdem back in the 80s. I noticed a lot of other solid stud8 players had been on a downard slide lately, whereas the much loser and more aggressive players here seems to be doing better. Could it be that our old solid style is going the way of the dinosaurs and it's time to LAG it up or face extinction? I followed a lot of the suggestions in the other thread but it seems to make no difference at all. As some might suggest, waiting until you're a 70% favourite will cost you more in antes and small bets than the +EV you'll get when you do hit a hand. All the little pots you give up is paying for his two smaller pairs to suck out on your overpairs.

FYI, almost all of the bad beats I've posted in the past were all against this guy, and he's clearly taken far more money out of than the reverse, so I think it's more than luck and that he's definetly a player to be feared. (If you're Mr. K then feel free to say hi!)

[count1]

Hi Lemon. I have played against Mr. K on a number of occasions, beginning at $1-$2 a few months ago. He was a big loser at that time. Played against him a few days ago and he won big. Mr. K has certainly improved his play lately, I am going to keep my eye on him.
I just call on the river.

[count1]

I have often thought about loosening up my game , and have tried playing LAG for short periods of time. I have found that I consistently win by playing A-B-C poker.
When these LAG's run over a table at times it does make you question the wisdom of playing tight aggressive.

[stud7champ]

I think you over played your hand. I also think he may have misread your hand as going for low rather than high. He can also fish a bit as he is in late position.
Looking at his opening cards by 4th street he had 10,7,4,7 with three clubs v your xx52 (Low draw or one pair)and one other hand most would find this hand ok to take one more card hoping to hit 2 pair or 4 clubs by 5th street. By 5th street he had 2 pair 77 & 1010 with 3 spades and probabaly put you on one high pair right now or a made low 8 high. I note he does not bet into you on 5th (most prople would which indicates hes a strong cautious player. He may also be loose on 3rd street and tight from 4th street and therefore appear looser than he really is.)
street just in case you have a high pair & low pair. Once he hits the boat he's aggresive of course. But you are raising and re raising. I would have only called his bet and saved 3 big bets as he could have had a set of 10s or the spade flush.
hes got your number, when you play him you are overplaying your hand giving him an extra 3 big bets per losing hand?
Why not avoid him and get back to winning?

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]

Looking at his opening cards by 4th street he had 10,7,4,7 with three clubs

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, that's what I thought at first, but his hole cards were:

J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

How the hell does someone play this hand profitably in Hi/Lo? (I'll concede I'm a noob but these are rainbow cards!)

I have no idea about this K guy if he's winning play stuff like that.

Luck o' the Irish? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[count1]

By the way Lemon, good raise and reraise on 6th. You read your opponent perfectly and if he doesn't catch on river you take down a big pot.

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you over played your hand. I also think he may have misread your hand as going for low rather than high. He can also fish a bit as he is in late position.
Looking at his opening cards by 4th street he had 10,7,4,7 with three clubs v your xx52 (Low draw or one pair)and one other hand most would find this hand ok to take one more card hoping to hit 2 pair or 4 clubs by 5th street. By 5th street he had 2 pair 77 & 1010 with 3 spades and probabaly put you on one high pair right now or a made low 8 high. I note he does not bet into you on 5th (most prople would which indicates hes a strong cautious player. He may also be loose on 3rd street and tight from 4th street and therefore appear looser than he really is.)
street just in case you have a high pair & low pair. Once he hits the boat he's aggresive of course. But you are raising and re raising. I would have only called his bet and saved 3 big bets as he could have had a set of 10s or the spade flush.
hes got your number, when you play him you are overplaying your hand giving him an extra 3 big bets per losing hand?
Why not avoid him and get back to winning?

[/ QUOTE ]He has J747, two clubs, on 4th. He'll need to hit perfect 3 streets in a row to make either a low or a flush, and by fifth, he misses both of those outs and still calls. I don't think it's fair to say that he's a cautious player. I capped with him on 6th because the only way i'm behind is if he had on fifth either: AA, trips, or tens, and he's not the type of player to check/call with that range of hands.

As for the river raise: I did think awhile about it. He has four outs to improve his hand; 6 if he had an ace down. If he didn't improve his probable tens up, he'll likely call and I'll gain 1BB. If he does improve, he'll likely raise and i'll lose 2BBs. He'll improve less than 33% of the time (actually around 12-17%) so I figured it was +EV to raise. There's also the odd chance that he was slowplaying a monster until 5th, and how likely that is will depend upon your read of him. He usually gets no respect so I don't think he would slowplay here. All in all, I don't think a raise on the river is overplaying kings up given his range of hands. I'd love to here what everyone else thinks, since I'm clearly not the expert on how to beat him.

My stud high game is atrocious of course. If you put villain on tens up, and lets suppose you represent 9s up but actually have queens up, would you raise the river after capping 6th? Andy is always ranting about getting maximum value so I like to get as much of it as I can myself. Is there any value in raising the river in this hypothetical scenario?

I usually get very aggressive against Kguy if i'm very confident that i'm a favourite to win over him. I usually look over the HH after a big pot and I rarely cap with him when I was behind. The only exception being the hand where he had higher quads than me of course. Mike Caro recommends a lot of calling and occasional betting but not raising against manics. I'm not sure how applicable that is here since I'm trying to get as much value out of the hand as possible, and want him to pay draw out. Would playing more passively here be better?

I didnt consider if he may have had a four flush on fourth. If I suspected that, I would not have raised the river. The fact that he checked both streets made me suspect he had a weak hand, as he regularly bets any hand that isn't a big underdog. What range of hands are you putting him on, on sixth?

As for avoiding him in the future... I will definetly be doing that until I can counter his style. He was quite generous when I first bumped into him, but now it looks like he's getting the better of me now. Well this thread was supposed to be more generally directed towards how to play successful superLAGs, not necessarily this hand in particular. I guess I should have posted a more boring hand!

[zoidswallet]

Is his name in all caps?

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
Is his name in all caps?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes.

[mscags]

BRL,
If this guy really is as LAGy as you say he is than I like the way you played this hand a lot. I probably might have just called the first river bet unless I've seen him try this move before with very little. I think you are justified to raise him on sixth based upon your read of him. I play this hand the same way, I think this was just one of those times. Keep playing solid poker and eventually it will turn around. Something to keep in mind that I've come upon is that my steaks "seem" like they last longer playing 8/B than HE because I don't play 3/4 tables at a time and thus don't get in as many hands per hour. Fewer hands means longer swings. Keep playing solid and it will all come back [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]