Possible Cheating (Long-ish) Please Help

[THWAP!]

Hi,

I need some help. This is the situation, and I will try to describe it as neutrally as possible.

I typically play online, and sometimes in casinos. I play for middle-ish stakes. I also play in a weekly home game that has a $20 buyin. Recently, my roommate, whom I've been helping teach play online, has started playing in the game. I figured it would be a good way to help him learn the game. My roommate is smart, plays out of my accounts, and has done well at poker at low stakes.

This weekly game is with friends who are not poker players. They are there to have fun, and they are, in general, relatively poor players.

Recently, my roommate has been doing very well at the game. He has racked up wins of around $100 a night in a .10/.20 game. He plays very tight, but generally gets action on hands (it's a very loose game). He often shows down things like sets.

Two sessions ago, he had a good session. He had KK versus AA and sucked out. He had QQ versus AA and sucked out. I was not involved in any of the hands.

Last session, he won about $100. I was not present for this game. He had AK on an AK9 board and sucked out versus 99. He had 33 versus KK on a K93 board, and made quads on the turn. He was apparently dealing this hand. Another hand, he had AQ versus QQ and AJ on a AAQ board and the money went in the middle.

Tonight, I played in the game again. This is my last time playing in the game (I'm moving to a new town). So, we were joking, and I'm like "maybe i'll run as well as you run tonight." and he says "oh, don't worry. then i'll win it off you when i cold deck you. like maybe set over set or a freeroll."

In this game, he was dealing half the hands. I got dealt a nut straight, three sets, including a set over set, and also a few boats. I'm doing really well. People are making Very Expensive second best hands against me. He is playing very tight, as usual.

Then this hand comes up. a bunch of limpers, i limp in ep with Jc Tc. he limps, too. The flop is Qh 9h 8s. Someone bets, i raise, he reraises all in, and i call. He shows Jh Th and turns a heart. Ok.

Shortly thereafter, this hand comes up. It's folded to him, and he raises. This generally means a premium hand, though I know that he is capable of playing me differently, since I am one of the more experienced players in the game--i can make laydowns or calls that other people won't make. I don't say this to be arrogant, but simply to establish that our states of mind when we're playing each other are clearly different than when we are involved in hands against anyone else in the game. One caller, and I call on the button with KsTs. We're pretty deep. The flop is Qs Js 9c. I check, he bets the full pot, and I call. There is about 10 in the pot. Turn is an offsuit 2. I bet 10, he moves in for 50 more. Obviously I call. He turns over As2s. I offer to run it twice, and he immediately declines. the river is a spade. what's notable is that my rooommate is very risk averse, and i think it's both unlikely that he will play the hand like this--later on, he said that he thought i was capable of folding a set here, and he had outs--and i thought it was especially strange that he wouldn't agree to run it twice.

after this, I notice someting about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.

the events above are relayed in the order they happened. i then said stuff to other people in the game, and they observed it. they have claimed to see the same thing, though they are not experienced gamblers. my judgment is somewhat biased since i feel like i would be on the wrong end of this. at the same time, the fact that this many colddeckings have happened, and this strange pattern of events leaves me wondering. I know weird colddeckings happen, but this kid seems to be dancing in between raindrops at all the weirdest times, and then i see that the shuffle appears to be weird.

So a few questions,

(1) What is the probability that you think he is cheating?

(2) If you think he is cheating, what evidence do you think is the most compelling? Alternatively, if you do not think he is cheating, what omission from the fact pattern gives you reason to believe that no cheating is occurring?

(3) If you believe he is cheating, how should I resolve the situation? Bear in mind that I am leaving town, but that other people's money was at stake here too. Also say what you would plan to do in the case of an anticipated denial. bear in mind that since this person is my roommate, and i have financial dealings with him (things like playing off my accounts online, settling up rent payments and stuff), that i would have to tread somewhat carefully.

I know this was long, but I wanted to be precise about the fact pattern and the sequence, and I also wanted to be even handed. your help is much appreciated.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
In this game, he was dealing half the hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh??????


[ QUOTE ]
...after this, I notice something about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be incredibly stupid to have not noticed his overt deck-setting the first time he dealt a hand. Actually, you all must be incredibly stupid to have continued playing with this person.

[RunDownHouse]

There is no reason to take the deck off the table at any time, and anyone who does so should be regarded with suspicion immediately.

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]

(1) What is the probability that you think he is cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

100%

[THWAP!]

he dealt half the hands, and someone else dealt half the hands. and also, we're giant, lazy retards....

seriously. you're in a game with friends. FRIENDS. some of them hold their cards at 90-degree angles and other people can sometimes see them. that's the kind of game it is. you're not on the lookout for collusion artists. it's a .10/.20 game. let's just say that it's not the type of situation where you're on the lookout for cheating. and the dude is my roommate. and the stakes involved aren't significant (unless you generate a colddecking situation when the stacks actually get deep).

right. this was SO OBVIOUS, and I had absolutely no reasons not to raise a stink right there on the spot with a friend of mine in a friendly game. after all, i just liberally accuse people of cheating and take steps to prevent cheating in friendly games. anyone who doesn't is a huge effing moron. and if you do suspect cheating, it's really stupid to wait to ask other impartial people and then decide a course of action. i am so stupid.

keep in mind that this is the first time that i played with my roommate where he was dealing a substantial number of hands. i did end up noticing. i pointed it out to other people who definitely aren't experienced gamblers and wouldn't be counted on to notice themselves. but they agreed that they saw what i saw. now the trick is what inference to draw from it, and this is where i want unbiased people to help me.

i hope the sarcasm was evident here. sometimes you ask help on these forums, and you get this extremely condescending reply. it's sometimes more helpful if you just think about the state of mind in the OP's post, and why he's asking the questino. chesspain, i know you're a respected poster around here, so you can take my comment as a more general one (that no one will pay attention to anyway).

[capone0]

yes he cheats, ask for the money back. a friend of mine used to cheat, used to peak at the flop before he delt. would call large raises with terrible hands like 105o and 104 and flop 2 pair in miracle fashions. we wouldn't let him deal but we still let him play but he wasn't allowed in any of the bigger games on campus. he's actually a pretty good player, he wins decently online grinding, he just couldn't stop cheating for a while, it was kinda rediculous.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

I need some help. This is the situation, and I will try to describe it as neutrally as possible.

I typically play online, and sometimes in casinos. I play for middle-ish stakes. I also play in a weekly home game that has a $20 buyin. Recently, my roommate, whom I've been helping teach play online, has started playing in the game. I figured it would be a good way to help him learn the game. My roommate is smart, plays out of my accounts, and has done well at poker at low stakes.

This weekly game is with friends who are not poker players. They are there to have fun, and they are, in general, relatively poor players.

Recently, my roommate has been doing very well at the game. He has racked up wins of around $100 a night in a .10/.20 game. He plays very tight, but generally gets action on hands (it's a very loose game). He often shows down things like sets.

Two sessions ago, he had a good session. He had KK versus AA and sucked out. He had QQ versus AA and sucked out. I was not involved in any of the hands.

Last session, he won about $100. I was not present for this game. He had AK on an AK9 board and sucked out versus 99. He had 33 versus KK on a K93 board, and made quads on the turn. He was apparently dealing this hand. Another hand, he had AQ versus QQ and AJ on a AAQ board and the money went in the middle.

Tonight, I played in the game again. This is my last time playing in the game (I'm moving to a new town). So, we were joking, and I'm like "maybe i'll run as well as you run tonight." and he says "oh, don't worry. then i'll win it off you when i cold deck you. like maybe set over set or a freeroll."

In this game, he was dealing half the hands. I got dealt a nut straight, three sets, including a set over set, and also a few boats. I'm doing really well. People are making Very Expensive second best hands against me. He is playing very tight, as usual.

Then this hand comes up. a bunch of limpers, i limp in ep with Jc Tc. he limps, too. The flop is Qh 9h 8s. Someone bets, i raise, he reraises all in, and i call. He shows Jh Th and turns a heart. Ok.

Shortly thereafter, this hand comes up. It's folded to him, and he raises. This generally means a premium hand, though I know that he is capable of playing me differently, since I am one of the more experienced players in the game--i can make laydowns or calls that other people won't make. I don't say this to be arrogant, but simply to establish that our states of mind when we're playing each other are clearly different than when we are involved in hands against anyone else in the game. One caller, and I call on the button with KsTs. We're pretty deep. The flop is Qs Js 9c. I check, he bets the full pot, and I call. There is about 10 in the pot. Turn is an offsuit 2. I bet 10, he moves in for 50 more. Obviously I call. He turns over As2s. I offer to run it twice, and he immediately declines. the river is a spade. what's notable is that my rooommate is very risk averse, and i think it's both unlikely that he will play the hand like this--later on, he said that he thought i was capable of folding a set here, and he had outs--and i thought it was especially strange that he wouldn't agree to run it twice.

after this, I notice someting about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.

the events above are relayed in the order they happened. i then said stuff to other people in the game, and they observed it. they have claimed to see the same thing, though they are not experienced gamblers. my judgment is somewhat biased since i feel like i would be on the wrong end of this. at the same time, the fact that this many colddeckings have happened, and this strange pattern of events leaves me wondering. I know weird colddeckings happen, but this kid seems to be dancing in between raindrops at all the weirdest times, and then i see that the shuffle appears to be weird.

So a few questions,

(1) What is the probability that you think he is cheating?

(2) If you think he is cheating, what evidence do you think is the most compelling? Alternatively, if you do not think he is cheating, what omission from the fact pattern gives you reason to believe that no cheating is occurring?

(3) If you believe he is cheating, how should I resolve the situation? Bear in mind that I am leaving town, but that other people's money was at stake here too. Also say what you would plan to do in the case of an anticipated denial. bear in mind that since this person is my roommate, and i have financial dealings with him (things like playing off my accounts online, settling up rent payments and stuff), that i would have to tread somewhat carefully.

I know this was long, but I wanted to be precise about the fact pattern and the sequence, and I also wanted to be even handed. your help is much appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buy a $6 automatic shuffler at Wall Mart

Problem solved.

[soko]

This is why the poker gods invented things like "Cutting the deck" and "placing the cards on the table".

Don't feel bad, I've caught a deck setter before and it took that uncomfortable confontation with him to learn to kindly ask anyone who is dealing to not handle the deck in any suspicious manner. I will stand up and collect cards in the process of being delt and ask for a redeal if I see the deck wasn't cut first, make it part of the house rules and nobody can argue.

[MrMonkey]

Even in a friendly game, the deck is always above the table and should always be cut. If somebody forgets to cut the deck INSIST that it be cut. Very few people find this offensive because for experienced card players, passing the deck to the right to be cut, and then having it cut, is part of the ritual of playing cards. (I grew up playing lots of card games, so when I shuffle a deck I put it on my right to be cut without thinking, and when I see a deck sitting to my left I cut it without thinking). I'm guessing some players are even superstituous about cutting the deck, since that is the final determination of who will get dealt which cards and the deck is set for the hand after that.

I agree, 100% chance he is cheating. I have actually been through this twice in my 0.25/0.50 nl poker group at school in the last two years with two different people. One of them was sloppy and just handling the cards under the table like your roommate, although the other one, who is pretty clever, had actually invented some semi-sophisticated trick shuffles and cuts of his own and was a decent mechanic. It took a very long time for anybody to catch on.

Anyway, I have some advice for how to confront him. First of all, confronting him alone is best in my opinion. Don't take any 'I don't know what you're talking about' bs from him, he's obviously cheating and you can enumerate hands and descripe his deck handling methods and eventually he won't be able to deny it anymore.

The most difficult thing is figuring out where to go from there. My poker group in college was also a group of friends to a certain extent, often doing non-poker related things together. What myself and a few friends 'in the know' did against the two different cheaters was allow them to keep playing in games and just keep an eye on them. After having been caught it's unlikely he'll try it again anyway.

I'm sure people will disagree with me on this, but I don't recommend letting anybody else know who doesn't already know. I think this would only create more problems than it could solve. If you're pretty sure he won't cheat again I'd leave it at that. We infact had some threats of physical violence and intimidation in one instance when somebody found out about another player's cheating (of course, 0.25/0.50 nl being slightly higher stakes there were a few players who had lost a few hundred dollars to this player).

[EStreet20]

He's cheating, you guys are allowing him to do so by not making and enforcing a rule where he has to deal on top of the table. I'd say something to him and egg him on till he takes a swing, then I'd kick the ever loving [censored] out of him and be able to claim self-defense.