Ways in which Republicans love freedom...

[MMMMMM]

I don't know for sure, ptmusic; I don't see any really good reason a citizen shouldn't be able to own 200 deer rifles if, for instance, that's what they care to collect.

I think anything that qualifies as a "personal firearm" should be OK for a citizen to own. That would exclude things like artillery, etc, I suppose. I guess that might be because the 2nd Amendment speaks of the right to "keep and bear arms" and I don't really see how you would "bear" a piece of artillery;-)

I feel a bit ambiguous about things like M-16s. I don't see any reason a citizen would "need" them, but still, if the government ever were to become truly tyrannical somehow (hypothetically speaking, let's say there were to be a military coup 30 years from now) you would want as many citizens owning good fighting firearms as possible. While the military could soundly defeat any pocket of resistance, they couldn't very well control the entire country if most of the populace had good firearms. So although I can't foreseee such a thing happening, I think the deterrent factor to would-be tyrants would be greatest in countries where there is a highly armed populace. And tyranny is the worst of all human conditions.

I don't think incidents of people going on rampages with such weapons are frequent enough, statistically speaking, to come anywhere near a level that might justify banning such weapons.

Also a note: some of the weapons the media characterizes as if on a par with M-16s, catch-phrase-speakwise, really aren't. Semi-automatic is very different than fully automatic. They call things "assault rifles" but you have to squeeze the trigger each time you want to shoot. Not even close to an M-16.

I think our founding fathers feared the government more than they feared criminals or psycho killers. A look at the history of the world will easily show that they were justified in these fears, and in limiting the powers of government, and protecting the rights of the individual.

I'd rather take my chances against the random rare psycho or criminal than against a tyrannical government. So I guess that means I think citizens should be able to own M-16s too.

[ptmusic]

Alright, so you draw the line somewhere. Your line is a lot different than mine, but at least you don't sound like a nut. Now if only the lobbyists and lawmakers didn't sound like nuts....

- ptmusic

[Fishwhenican]

I agree with MMMMMM's answers for the most part. Very well stated and thought out.

Personally, I think that there is far too much focus being made on the gun involved in a crime than of the crime itself, and the criminal who is committing that crime. If someone commits a crime they should be punished, plain and simple. If someone uses a gun (or their bare hands or a rock or a big stick) to murder another person and they are found to be guilty, beyond a reasonble doubt, then they should be put to death or at the very least put into jail for the rest of their life.

As far as personal gun ownership, I would love to have an automatic weapon, a silencer or a 50BMG. I do not for a couple of reasons. Primarily cost and not having any real use for them. I am personally far more interested in a new hunting rifle than an automatic M16 or something like that.

I also think that you see groups like the NRA fighting so hard against gun laws because they see the old saying of you give them an inch and they take a mile coming into play with the "Anti's" out there. The laws are there in place to punish people who use guns against other people. Stop blaming the guns and look at the criminals instead.

BTW, thanks for the interesting discussion ptmusic. It is good to actually hear from a person like yourself who will keep an open mind and actually will at least agree with some things like my right to hunt and feed my family. I have more often than not run into people who just will not budge or see any other point of view than their own. It is refreshing!

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
Dr. Ted Miller

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Now here’s an unbiased source – used to be on the board of Handgun control Inc. and National Coalition to Ban Handguns. – Where do you think his politics lie? (pun intended)

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Set that aside for a moment, and let me see how far you would take your "right to bear arms": forget about the current laws of any particular country.

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Set aside guns for a minute – Freedom means it’s not my (or your) purview to tell you (or you to tell me) what I (or you) need or want. If I want to buy a Thompson Machine gun so be it ( I own 3) If I commit a crime, then I should be prosecuted. Until then as long as I’m not bothering you leave me the hell alone . I don’t remember who said it but “ The right to swing my fist in the air ends at your nose” sums it up pretty well.


[ QUOTE ]
Do you think everyone should have the right to buy an AK-47 (or any gun) today? Or do you believe in SOME gun control? If so, where do you draw the line, and why?

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Criminals should not be allowed to own guns. Law abiding citizens should be able to buy or make whatever gun they choose. I’m against gun control because the groups that push it really want to tell us how to live our lives; guns are just the first step. MADD is a great example. They started with a noble purpose – and have morphed into a temperance movement.

[Fishwhenican]

Well Said!

You aren't really Ted Nugent are you! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[slamdunkpro]

No, but I wish I had his bucks! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ptmusic]

"Criminals should not be allowed to own guns."

I think we can all agree on that. But they are certainly getting them, can't we all agree on that too?

And why are they getting them? Because there are so many guns in the world today, and because it is so easy to purchase them!

In theory, I agree with any law-abiding citizen's right to own or do anything he/she pleases, as long as it doesn't infringe on the freedoms of others. But in practice, some freedoms must be regulated, or "controlled", in order to protect everyone.

Are law-abiding citizens selling their guns to criminals? Of course they are! Often they don't know they are selling to criminals (often they do), but that doesn't change the fact that it is happening.

I live in Los Angeles. There isn't much hunting going on around here, except hunting for humans as initiation to get into a gang, and random freeway shootings. Maybe I'd feel differently about guns in the world if guns in my world were put to a different, more beneficial, use.

As for the NRA not wanting to give an inch, well neither does the other side. Both are unreasonable. So what if you give an inch, and the other side wants a mile? Give them that inch (like making AK-47s a little harder to get into gang members hands), and when the anti-gun folks want a mile (like a ban on all guns), then fight that.

If the NRA were reasonable in that way, they would win over a WHOLE lot of folks like me who are somewhere in the middle. And note to those who wish they owned assault rifles AND also to those who wish we'd get rid of all guns: there are many more of us in the middle. Either side would be wise to make some concessions and win our respect.

-ptmusic

[slamdunkpro]

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And why are they getting them? Because there are so many guns in the world today, and because it is so easy to purchase them!

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The largest suppliersof small arms in the world are the Russians and the Chinese - lets start with them

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because it is so easy to purchase them!

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You've never tried to buy a gun have you?


[ QUOTE ]
Are law-abiding citizens selling their guns to criminals? Of course they are! Often they don't know they are selling to criminals (often they do), but that doesn't change the fact that it is happening.

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There are laws against this on the books already. - Enforce them.
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But in practice, some freedoms must be regulated, or "controlled", in order to protect everyone.

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A: Who decides?

B: "Controlled freedom isn't freedom

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(like making AK-47s a little harder to get into gang members hands),

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AK-47's are already illeagle

As for the rest of your post, gun owners have been giving that inch over and over again since 1934, and it's never enough for the anti's. Enough is enough.

[ptmusic]

You're ignoring the points of my post. The more guns we allow to be sold and manufactured, the more criminals will have guns. The more each side of the issue won't budge, the more each side loses respect of those in the middle. We would be happy with something reasonable that lessened the amount of guns in the hands of criminals.

Blaming the Chinese and the Russians will get us nowhere. Last time I checked, there were a few people in the gun business here in the States. Just saying "enforce the law" gets us nowhere. That would be ideal, but we don't live in a utopia. Saying that pro-gun folks are always "giving" an inch, when it just isn't true, gets us nowhere. Did they "give" the anti-assault weapon ban to Clinton to sign, or was that fought for by the anti-gun folks? Did they then take that ban away as soon as they had the votes and President to do so? I'm not saying the anti-gun folks are a bunch of fair-minded saints, but don't make out the NRA to be a reasonable, comprimising lobby either.

That dog don't hunt.

I see that you very set in your ways, and unwilling to concede anything. Go ahead and hold your ground, soldier. That gets us nowhere too.

-ptmusic

[ptmusic]

"BTW, thanks for the interesting discussion ptmusic. It is good to actually hear from a person like yourself who will keep an open mind and actually will at least agree with some things like my right to hunt and feed my family. I have more often than not run into people who just will not budge or see any other point of view than their own. It is refreshing! "

Thanks, and same back to you. Believe me, there are plenty of us who lean left and are reasonable people who want to have reasonable discussions. (Although I don't lean as far left as some: I vote Republican from time to time, and all my liberal friends think I'm a right-wing conservative nazi! Of course, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal pinko commie....).

-ptmusic