Homer vs JTG, checkraise turn hoping better overcards fold.

[kiddo]

In a very good post recently (Homer: 05/12/03 10:51 AM) a player, JTG, was raising on the button with KK. Homer 3-bet in small blind with KQo. JTG called, going for a raise on turn. Headsup on flop.
FLOP: 457r
Homer bet, JTG called.
TURN 457(6)
Homer check, JTG bet. Homer checkraise, hoping JTG would fold better overcards.

Im to weak to do this checkraise on turn to get overcards to fold. But Im trying to learn.

My questions are: How often do you do this? Is this routine for Homer, or is it a tricky move against a player he knows well? Would you do it against an unknown opponent? Which flops, turncards are good for this?

[travisand]

I do not believe that this is a routine play.

You should have a good read on your opponent before you should try this. Very few people will lay down to a check-raise.

[JTG51]

I do not believe that this is a routine play.

I agree. Check raising the turn on a stone cold bluff should be a very rare play.

Very few people will lay down to a check-raise.

Great point. You had better be sure your opponent is capable of betting then folding to a raise on the same street before you even think about a play like this. Many players aren't.

In general, if you think your opponent has just overcards and you want to push him out of the pot you are a lot better off just betting than trying for the check raise.

[Homer]

kiddo, I agree with the others. This isn't something I will try against unknown opponents. Against those players I will either give up and check-fold the turn, or bet the turn hoping that they fold their overcards. Against JTG in this hand, I knew there was a good chance that he had only overcards and he knew there was a good chance that I had only overcards. Given his call on the flop, there was close to a 100% chance that his overcards were better than mine if he had overcards as opposed to an overpair. If I just bet the turn he would likely call me down with AQ/AK, knowing that with this ragged board I could be trying to push him off of overcards with my overcards. I felt the only chance to get him to fold a better hand would be by checkraising. Given my (incorrect) read (that he would be overcards when checked to), I feel that I made a good play since:

-- JTG is willing to fold to a checkraise
-- The standard play of betting out would not get him to fold his overcards given the play of the hand to that point

It could definitely be argued that I have a check-fold on the turn because his call on the flop likely means an overpair (since he would probably play back at me with big overcards and would fold weak overcards).

There is some chance that my play during this hand was FPS, but I don't think so since I feel like I thought out each decision before I made it. Hopefully I didn't make the fancy play just for the hell of it.

-- Homer

[eMarkM]

You can only attempt this against someone who would lay down right there to the c/r, otherwise it's futile. Normally only solid players are capable of this, most will just call down. Obviously Homer thinks JTG is a player capable of such a laydown.

[Clarkmeister]

I think JTG got fancy with both his preflop smoothcall and his flop call. I don't either one bit. And I think Homer's play is symptomatic of the typical PP tenancy to vastly overplay hands headsup. Its like y'all have forgotten where the fold button is.

[ripdog]

I was just explaining this concept to a non poker playing friend. Against a known good player, going for the CR with just overcards is worth the risk. Most of the time he will have just overcards and you'll be able to push him out of the pot. If your read is right he either has to fold or come back over the top. What do you do then, Homer? A low limit re-re-steal? I don't think so, but maybe you're into his head next time you guys lock horns. Great play.

[Homer]

I stated in the original post that in retrospect check-folding might have been the better play, so perhaps you are right. If my check-raise gets him to fold overcards 20/75 of the time or more, though, then it is the better play. Will it work that often? I don't know.

-- Homer

[Clarkmeister]

Homer,

I was not trying to pick on you, though in retrospect it may appear that way. My point is that your play is incredibly typical of PP players. Essentially, you are almost never going to get an ace to fold to your 3-bet, especially against a player willing to bet the turn headsup in a steal situation. You are, however, going to get 4 bet frequently, and even when you do not, you are now in a hopeless bluff the river situation. You are in, at best, a situation where you must succeed in making your opponent fold nearly 40% of the time, a number that is almost certainly unachievable in the typical PP game where any Ace simply IS going to be shown down in a steal-resteal situation almost all the time.

[Homer]

I think you may have misread the hand (or else it was posted incorrectly). I never three-bet. I bet the flop and check-raised the turn. If I bet the turn and then three-bet after JTG raised I would have no problem with you calling me a nutcase. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

I didn't think you were trying to pick on me personally, and even if you were, no big deal. I'm here to learn, so feel free to pick apart my play and tell it to me like it is.

-- Homer