VPIP 30/20 today, 20/15 yesterday.... and tomorrow?

[kiddo]

If a VPIP 25 plays 100 hands he has seen 30 pots (big blind for free) and paid, lets say, 25BB.

If a VPIP 60 plays 100 hands he has seen 65 pots and paid, lets say, 50BB.

The difference in winrate between VPIP 25 and VPIP 60 is not 25BB/hour. The loose player wins back most of the money he spends preflop (even with trashands as 96s).

Of course there will be some extremly bad players that actually lose more postflop then they spend preflop. But they will not play the game for many hours unless they are extremly rich.

[Nikla]

[ QUOTE ]
A player coldcalling on button with pretty weak hands will not lose 1BB/hand doing this.


[/ QUOTE ]

A good 30/20 player won't do much coldcalling. He will raise a wide variety of holdings, but he wont coldcall weak hands.
Seems to me like you're mixing up your cards here. I get the point you're trying to make, but you're just wrong when you say that preflop is where the biggest mistakes are made.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
People dont realise that the successful 30/20 type players like schneids and nikla have been around a long time.

[/ QUOTE ]

These 2 players dont currently play 30/20........... do they????????

[kiddo]

Ah, in my first post I was talking about why the (bad) players we win from lose money, and I think it got more to do with bad preflop play then bad postflop play. Or at least I think there has been a little to much talk about bad/superiour postflop play lately at this forum.

In Harringtons book on nolimt tournaments he says that position is so important that a mediocre player would beat a worldclass player if he only had position every hand. I think the same goes for preflopplay. A bad player would beat a good if he only always came in with better hands. In this sense I think misstakes preflop are more expensive then postflop.

I was not talking about the difference between 20/15 and 30/20. Im a 25/17 myself so Im in between.

[naphand]

I agree Kiddo, this forum is becoming as swingy in its opinions as the game itself, and most posters/readers do not have the experience to judge how adjustments to their game will affect their WR, SD or even ability to win consistently. Most players (myself included) had gaps in their knowledge.

I am just reading John Feeney's "Inside the Poker Mind" and right there in the first few chapters he talks of this type of thing, the kinds of mistakes good-to-fair players make:

(i) Players tend to over-rate their abilities
Having heard that the best players can get away with playing more hands they think they can do this too. Their over-rating abilities may have to do with the chance element in poker.

(ii) Trying to steal the blinds of skilled-aggressive players or mediocre-tenacious players.
They mis-judge either the long-run profit to be made...or the edge they posess.

(iii) Playing sub-marginal hands.
Some players are especially prone to start playing inadequate hands when they've had a winning streak.

I look forward to the rest of the book...

[tolbiny]

"Im a 25/17 myself so Im in between."

Sweet, i am at 25.00 and 16.91 my last 12,000 hands, i am as good as kiddo! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Any way, i think that your preflop stats should reflect what you are comfortable with, i have slowly been addin hands since i started out at around 21 and 13- and i don't think i am comfortable increasing the number of hands i play (at the 5-10 level) any more.

[mindflayer]

I just read the same book and switched from 30/20 last month to 24/18 this month.
in the Crappy offsuit hands pollcrappy offsuit hand poll
I folded every hand.
(last month I would have raised every hand except the KJo in SB)

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
(ii) Trying to steal the blinds of skilled-aggressive players or mediocre-tenacious players.
They mis-judge either the long-run profit to be made...or the edge they posess.


[/ QUOTE ]

Never thought of that, not explicitly, but damn, he's absolutely right. Going to have to look up that part . . .

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
(ii) Trying to steal the blinds of skilled-aggressive players or mediocre-tenacious players.
They mis-judge either the long-run profit to be made...or the edge they posess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement, but against thinking opponents, pushing a hand which is slightly -EV may have the effect of inducing your opponent to play back at you when you have a strong made hand. Being able to evaluate the significance of these kind of phenomena is probably one thing that separates expert players from good players. I sure don't know how to do it yet, but it's something I am trying to understand better.

I suspect expert players may make moves that are -EV for a given hand when they have legitimate meta-game considerations to do so. Other (non-expert) players make such a -EV move because (1) they don't believe it is -EV, (2) they understan that it is -EV but "have a feeling" they'll be able to outplay their opponent this hand, or (3) have succumbed to tilt and play on anyway. I think this is simplifying things a bit, but probably has some validity to it.

Of course, against half-thinking opponents, you half-push some -EV hands. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
I just read the same book and switched from 30/20 last month to 24/18 this month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you switch because of the book? If not, why did you switch?

Cartman