Holocaust Denial

[BCPVP]

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War is a state of affairs in which there are no rules -- anything goes, kill or be killed, use everthing you've got to destroy the enemy.

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Life has no "rules". We, in societies, set rules for ourselves to follow. War is no different, nor should it be.

[Darryl_P]

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Life has no "rules". We, in societies, set rules for ourselves to follow. War is no different, nor should it be.

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The thing about war is that there are at least 2 different societies involved. If they agree on a set of rules, then fine, but what if they don't? Why should only one side's idea be right?

[BCPVP]

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The thing about war is that there are at least 2 different societies involved. If they agree on a set of rules, then fine, but what if they don't? Why should only one side's idea be right?

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Often times, a set of rules can have a positive impact. Rules like generally treating prisoners with respect may actually make it easier to extract information out of them.

Plus it shows that we're above animals. Bushido, chivalry, honor; all have developed in various different advanced cultures while barbaric people cling to the "no rules" way. You don't have to agree down to every detail, as long as there's respect.

[Darryl_P]

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[Intentionally putting someone in a situation from which there is slim to no hope of escape/life and often times being directly responsible for the death is first degree murder.

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Not if you don't know in advance that it will lead to death. First degree murder requires pre-meditation of the intention to kill. The key question is what the Nazis true intentions were.

I'm not in any position to debate the issue because I never studied the subject, but the revisionists' position seems fair and believable to me. Is there any part of it which you consider not believable? If so, which part?

Here is a summary.

What I am saying is that P666's statement that the Nazis did not commit first degree murder is consistent with his version of the facts. If you want to show that the Nazis did commit first degree murder, then you are better off debating the facts of what went on at the time rather than talking about the definition of first degree murder.

I realize that it was Gamblor who mostly talked about that but since you endorsed it I figure I could reply to your post just the same.

You guys seem to regard US (or Canadian) law as some sort of sacred scripture or gospel. For the definition of a legal term that was coined in the US it may be, but for a broader scale debate like this Holocaust issue, it is tangential at best.

[BCPVP]

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I'm not in any position to debate the issue because I never studied the subject, but the revisionists' position seems fair and believable to me. Is there any part of it which you consider not believable? If so, which part?

Here is a summary.

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You've got to be kidding. That "summary", in an age where you can link to other sites with actual evidence, is a terrible piece of evidence. It's blatantly contradictory. First it says that the Holocaust should be called the Jewish Holocaust (which is wrong because many other "undesirables" were rounded up and killed too) and then goes on to say that the Holocaust wasn't really the Holocaust but just the Germans helping the Jews move out of Europe. I'll take what most credible historians think over a few crackpot anti-semites think, thank you.

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If you want to show that the Nazis did commit first degree murder, then you are better off debating the facts of what went on at the time rather than talking about the definition of first degree murder.

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How can I show whether Nazis committed first degree murder without first agreeing to what that means? Besides, my first post in here said that if what the Nazis did wasn't blatant first degree murder (and many are guilty of that), then it was depraved indifference at the least, which is still murder. And because of the scale of the murders it is far, far worse than just a few planned out murders. I don't understand the obsession you and Peter have with this "first degree" stuff. It makes litle difference when you consider the vastness of it all.

[Darryl_P]

How about the part about no evidence of gas chambers? That's a pretty strong statement which should be easy to disprove, if untrue. Is there any evidence of gas chambers that you know of?

The issue of first degree murder is important because if it's not, then it diminishes the holocaust as the number one "crime against humanity" of the 20th century, as many media outlets have tried to portray it while pretending to be 100% objective.

Truly objective media would focus on murderous regimes in proportion to the number of lives exterminated. Using this benchmark, Stalin's Soviet Communists are by far the number one serial killer of the 20th century, followed by Communist China, with Hitler and his Nazis coming third.

An innocent bystander who gets his info. from the media, however, is left with the impression that Hitler was by far the number one bad guy and from all objective accounts this is simply wrong. Working on trying to correct this gross error is a noble pursuit IMO.

[BCPVP]

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How about the part about no evidence of gas chambers? That's a pretty strong statement which should be easy to disprove, if untrue. Is there any evidence of gas chambers that you know of?

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This Zundel guy hasn't heard of google, I guess...


Demolished by the Nazis as they fled...


Guess how long these took to find? According to google, it was .36 seconds.

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The issue of first degree murder is important because if it's not, then it diminishes the holocaust as the number one "crime against humanity" of the 20th century

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The Final Solution is the evidence of first degree murder. Individual Nazis who took part in it are culpable for bringing it to be either by actively participating in it or doing nothing to stop it (depraved indifference). I won't get into an argument over whether it was the "number one crime against humanity in the 20th century", because there's no point to doing so.

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Truly objective media would focus on murderous regimes in proportion to the number of lives exterminated. Using this benchmark, Stalin's Soviet Communists are by far the number one serial killer of the 20th century, followed by Communist China, with Hitler and his Nazis coming third.

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So...maybe we should all just say "Weeeelllll, Hitler wasn't really that bad. Stalin was worse." See how stupid this is? All three dictators are all the some of the most awful people to walk the earth.

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An innocent bystander who gets his info. from the media, however, is left with the impression that Hitler was by far the number one bad guy and from all objective accounts this is simply wrong. Working on trying to correct this gross error is a noble pursuit IMO.

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Drop the media-phobia. If you aren't getting your information from personal interviews, you're getting it from some sort of medium.

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Over 3 million documented Jews lived in Poland at the start of the war. After the war less than 3,000. This is documented.

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I recall no reliable census for such a figure. Could please provide a reference ?

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Polish Jews

"On the eve of World War II, an estimated 3,351,000 Jews lived in Poland, more than in any other country; they constituted about 10% of the Polish population and nearly 20% of world Jewry. During the course of the Nazi occupation (1939–45), nearly 3,000,000 Polish Jews were killed, many of them in extermination camps such as Auschwitz (Os ´wiecim), near Cracow. Most of the survivors had fled to the USSR; at the end of the war, only about 55,000 Jews remained in Poland. Repatriation raised the total Jewish population to 250,000 in 1946. However, the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, combined with a series of anti-Semitic outbreaks in Poland (including a government-led campaign in 1968–69), induced most Jews to emigrate. By 1998, Poland had only about 10,000 to 30,000 Jews living in the country."

[Darryl_P]

In the first picture I can't see anything which resembles a gas reservoir or pumping apparatus, and in the second I see what could be someone's neglected garage.

My info. comes from travelling, looking around, talking to people about their own experiences, and reading peoples' own personal accounts in books and/or on the internet. Sure, the books and the internet are technically media, but you have to know I'm talking about organized networks with paid editors and not just physical media which do nothing more than physically transmit data.

Ah, ok, now I see the first of the three pictures after the edit. That one is interesting.

[BCPVP]

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In the first picture I can't see anything which resembles a gas reservoir or pumping apparatus

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Well, if you're trying to trick the people inside the chamber that they're actually in a shower, it doesn't make much sense to put a big fat tub of Zyklon B in the center, now does it?

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and in the second I see what could be someone's neglected garage.

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Funny, it was originally a garage before it was turned into a gas chamber. And then it was destroyed as the Germans retreated to cover up the evidence.