Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions

[mrwatson23]

Ray Zee offered this gem in a thread below: "They taught a gorilla how to play golf. He hit the ball 400 yards right down the middle. Tiger Woods was very worried until he saw him hit his putt 100 yards."

I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy: Howard Lederer (considered by many to be the best limit hold'em player on earth), Tom Weideman (mid to high limit pro, Physics PhD, genius), Chris Ferguson (WSOP champ, game theory expert, the only strictly tournament pro Sklansky says would crush cash games), and Abdul Jalib (80-160 pro, computer science guy). What makes these guys wrong?

[jasonHoldEm]

hmm...are you sure Ray isn't just suggesting that Gorillas shouldn't golf?

I'm way too new to the game to have an opinion on the open limp/raise issue. But I will say I tend to favor open raising over open limping (but I do both depending on the game I'm in).

jHE

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Ray Zee offered this gem in a thread below: "They taught a gorilla how to play golf. He hit the ball 400 yards right down the middle. Tiger Woods was very worried until he saw him hit his putt 100 yards."

I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy: Howard Lederer (considered by many to be the best limit hold'em player on earth), Tom Weideman (mid to high limit pro, Physics PhD, genius), Chris Ferguson (WSOP champ, game theory expert, the only strictly tournament pro Sklansky says would crush cash games), and Abdul Jalib (80-160 pro, computer science guy). What makes these guys wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

They are not wrong, none of them advocate the strategy you describe in your post.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I thinkt the open raise is good, if you have a hand good enough to call, you have a hand good enough to raise.

[ramjam]

You are playing 0.5/1.00 at Party. 90% of pots are unraised with 8 seeing the flop. When a pot is raised upfront there are usually two MP/LP callers plus the BB comes too. You are dealt the following UTG: (a) 55 or (b) 87s. What is the optimal play? I doubt that it is either fold or raise.

[StoneAge]

In most games I will typically open limp with a KJs or KQs in EP. If it is a really tough game I will probably be folding the KJs in EP and getting up to go to another game. If it is a fairly loose passive game I will limp with QJs or better and most pairs, raise with AQ or better in EP. I think alot of posters here might limp with 89s or better in EP in this type of game.
I tend to open limp in EP with 77-JJ (sometimes raise with TT and JJ if they will cold call with things like 57s)if a game has the kind of texture to get two or three cold callers against an open raiser. If I usually get one cold caller and maybe the BB, I will tend to open raise with these hands (77-JJ), maybe with QJs or better in this type of game- especially if they tend to give up on the flop easily.
From MP back my rasie or fold percentage climbs in most any texture of game.
Just some generalities

[rayrns]

a. open limp if there is no maniac behind me
b. 10% of the time I will open raise - 80% fold as I don't like playing 9-8s or lower UTG

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
Ray Zee offered this gem in a thread below: "They taught a gorilla how to play golf. He hit the ball 400 yards right down the middle. Tiger Woods was very worried until he saw him hit his putt 100 yards."

I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy: Howard Lederer (considered by many to be the best limit hold'em player on earth), Tom Weideman (mid to high limit pro, Physics PhD, genius), Chris Ferguson (WSOP champ, game theory expert, the only strictly tournament pro Sklansky says would crush cash games), and Abdul Jalib (80-160 pro, computer science guy). What makes these guys wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think anytime you voluntarily limit your options by saying 'never', you're almost certainly not picking the optimal strategy. While I tend to almost always raise or fold when I'm the first person in (certainly when playing short), I would never recommend 'never'. There will be situations that develop where you will just want to limp.

[togilvie]

Abdul certainly doesn't advocate this position, at least in the tight games that he plays in. In fact, he was one of the biggest proponents of increasing % of hands that players limp-re-raise with premium hands, so as to decrease the probability that Aces or Kings take down just the blinds.

Take a look at his preflop strategy papers at posev.com. One quick quote:

"Without other concerns, in a tight game you should raise with marginal hands, and limp (and usually reraise if raised) with your strongest hands. Balance your hands that you could have in various preflop scenarios, mixing strong with weak and weak with strong, so that you do not give too much information away by your actions, yet strive to still play most hands appropriately. "

I'd be very surprised if the other players you reference didn't take this view as well.

[mrwatson23]

Abdul certainly does advocate this position. I have read his pre-flop strategy at posev.com many times. In fact, he and Sklansky and Malmuth have debated this topic on these forums before. Abdul says that playing this way prevents information leakage, and keeps you from getting isolated by aggressive late position players who take your open limps as a sign of weakness.