How to be an EXCELLENT Post-Flop Player?

[imashyboi]

As we all know, no matter how tight you play preflop if you suck postflop you can't win all the money. Most of the money in hold'em is won after the flop which is why I wanted to start this tread. I play hold'em for the money and thats it. Yes its also fun but without actually seeing them laugh or cry when getting busted the game is pretty much about the MONEY. The problem about the game is everyone wants a piece of it but not everyone have the developed skills to beat the game. I certainly don't have the proper skills to beat the game which is why I need some help with postflop strategy. My preflop is pretty good but I might need some help with that as well.

I need some suggestions how to play postflop better. I understand being aggressive and isolating a fish preflop, but the problem is when you don't hit after a raise preflop with a few callers. Say you raise AQo in either early or mid position and have 2 callers, one is semi-tight/aggressive, and the other is a loose passive. Both players don't get out of line much, maybe just a few occations. 3 players and the flop comes KQ7r

1)Would you bet in this spot or check it and see who bets and then calling it down? (This sounds so tight passive however)

2)If you do bet and get c/raised by either player would you determine that your already beat and could call once to see the turn?

3)Bet, get c/raised, and call down both turn and river?

4)What about if you bet and get c/raised but the other player cold-calls making the pot bigger. With implied odds, the pot to the river will give you close to 8-1 to chase that two pair.


Another scenario I wanted to discuss is when you raise with an identical hand preflop, AK-AJ(suited or unsuited) and have a solid player who cold-calls in the CO or button. Again the flop doesn't help you, T88r. At this point my thinking would be, he already has a mid/small pair or a hand just as good as mine(or two overs like KQs/QJs/ATs). What do you do?

1)Would you lead and bet this flop or c/r when he bets?

2)If you bet and he calls, the turn comes out another blank Q. Would this be a perfect flop to bluff on?

3)Whats next if you bet again on the turn and get c/raised on?

4)Keep betting and hopes he folds on the river or he calls a similiar hand that you dominate on the river? (Any idea what to do when you put him on mid/small pairs)


These are just some postflop questions that I have been pondering. Sounds like there isn't a real straight answer but one play should favor another. I am mainly interested on players who play on 5/10 ~ 30/60 tables, 3/6 are welcome too. Lawrence_Ng from Canada once wrote, to be a good postflop player you need to recognize the spots where you want to be aggressive. Can someone expand on this a little more?

[admiralfluff]

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't have the proper skills to beat the game which is why I need some help with postflop strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

post and read specific hands on these forums in whatever category is appropriate for you. Read books. Don't post long incomprehensible threads that:

a) no will will attemp to read in entirety.

b) have no idea what you're talking about if reading is attempted.

Yesterday you said you "moved down to 3/6." Honestly, you need to keep moving.

[imashyboi]

I just want to know what people are thinking in these situations, I'm just comparing it to my own thoughts. Not sure if I'm thinking hold'em correctly thats why I want some folks opinions.

[admiralfluff]

my advice would be to play as best you can by the book (SSHE) in some small stakes limit games. When you come accross a hand where you're not sure what the best course of action is, post it in the SS forum. You will get the best responses that way.

[imashyboi]

I actually did that playing 15/30 and was winning at one point. For like two months or so I was winning then all of a sudden either my luck stopped or I just started running real bad. I'm talking about real bad where I'll flop set of A's and someone will hit quad 3's when we both hit our sets or when I hit KQs and hit my flush on the turn and someone holds AA and hits another suit to complete his higher flush on the river.(whats the odds, 13 suits all together, we have 6 of the same suit with 7 more left not including the ones that were distributed to other players and that one flops on the river, amazing) That month was my worst month after coming up close to 10k within two months. Pretty much whenever I held a set or two pair, the turn and river will hold a either a flush combo or a straight. It really sucks, that was happening to me in the 3/6 game.

[mrh86]

"1)Would you bet in this spot or check it and see who bets and then calling it down? (This sounds so tight passive however)"

You check, raise if only one of them bets or if one calls the other, then fold if you're reraised. If the player to your left bets and then the player between you two raises, you're probably beat and should give it up.

[disjunction]

How to become an excellent post-flop player:

(Step 1) Become skilled at predicting the range of hands your opponents have, given their previous actions.
(Step 2) Become skilled at predicting what actions your opponents will take in future betting rounds, based on your analysis of step 1.
(Step 3) Learn to take the mathematically optimal action quickly, based on Steps 1 and 2.

[Girchuck]

The way I have been improving postflop is through practice.
When you can read your opponents as tight aggressive and loose passive, you will eventually know what their actions are likely to mean. Many times you do not connect on the flop. If you had many callers, most prudent is to quit right there. Since you are raising good hands, you will hit the flop harder than your opponents on average, and will be able to charge them when you do. When you don't hit, you will lose. Try to lose little. If you had only one or two callers, you usually don't need to hit hard, because the chance that two opponents missed the flop is better than 40%. So, if you were the aggressor, and you have the right image, you can keep the initiative more often than not. Unless, one of the callers is a calling station of the calls down to river with A high or better variety. If you are against somebody like that, you will have to give up on aggression a lot with your worst flopped hands.
Beyond that, learn what your opponents mean when they raise you. If they are decent, the meaning of their raises will be influenced by your actions. If they are donks, you will have to figure out and note what their raises mean, and your job is done, because fish rarely changes meaning of their raises, they just play their cards.
Keep posting specific hands in the forums where people with similar experiences will help you analyse your play and come up with good solutions. Return the favor sometimes, analyze others' posted hands, try to come up with your opinion. If you don't have a clear opinion, at least you can speculate that the options available are close in EV, and a good candidate for randomizing play. Stand corrected a lot. That helps.
If you happened to pick up a new concept that you like, get in a game maybe a level lower than usual, and practice the new concept play wherever it comes up, don't do anything else, don't pay attention to results, just practice the concept. Then, you will see that either you understand the meaning of this play and find it useful, or you don't understand the meaning and you will come back and post hands and ask why this thing makes sense. Or even better, you will be able to spot game textures where the new thing works best, and distinguish it from other game textures where this ew play is worthless.
This is practice.

[Mathemagician]

[ QUOTE ]
If you happened to pick up a new concept that you like, get in a game maybe a level lower than usual, and practice the new concept play wherever it comes up, don't do anything else, don't pay attention to results, just practice the concept. Then, you will see that either you understand the meaning of this play and find it useful, or you don't understand the meaning and you will come back and post hands and ask why this thing makes sense. Or even better, you will be able to spot game textures where the new thing works best, and distinguish it from other game textures where this ew play is worthless.
This is practice.

[/ QUOTE ]Unfortunately, for many of us a lower level means 25 or 50NL, which makes the "practice" absolutely worthless. Not flaming you, just expressing frustration at how "unrealistic" play at these lower levels is. Makes practice very expensive...

M

[imashyboi]

I find myself doing this, but recently I've been playing alot more passive if I don't have top pair after two players enters the pot on the flop. We can argue that if you raise both players, bettor and caller, either one of them can have either the K or Q or plain just chasing a draw. If we raise both of them and they don't 3-bet but raise the turn then whats your next move? This could be an easy fold but on the turn you'll have enough pot odds to draw your two pair if someone is holding KQ.

If we play passively by calling it down we might give them a chance to outdraw you which isn't the best option either.

If someone 3-bets your raise on the flop can you still chase your two pair if you think your A is live? By the time the bets get to you their will be about 7BBs, with implied odds to the river you should have enough odds to chase but will it be good, thats the question.