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  #1  
Old 12-22-2005, 03:55 PM
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Default Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?

SSHE and Getting Started in Hold'em are the books I'm mainly reading now. Some situations like playing from the blinds, Ed says you can play a number of not usual starting hands IF you play well after the flop. I know this is a complex subject and may or does involve counting outs to draws and deciding when you have enough to take one off, as he says, and continue on. Pot size he emphasizes is all important to be aware of and sometimes I get "tied to the pot" because it's large (just raised pre-flop is enough, he states) and have trouble folding when it looks unfavorable for me even though the pot is big.
I have poker tracker and 107,000 hands in 10 months. I started play money (3weeks) and then went right to .25/50 at Pokerstars but feared losing my bankroll on the downswings--my ego or psychology or confidence still gets shaken when I have those swings--I would like to be a little more detached about the outcomes of my playing and just play to learn and get experience but I get pretty excited about the wins.
So to protect my bankroll I have been playing .05/.10 tables--usually 4 or three depending on what I can handle or how tired I am. I went to .10/.20 when Stars started that recently and it was easier to make the jump to .25 from .05 that way.
I must have leaks because my play is so inconsistent--I'm a solid winner many times but cancel that out with bad or poor play on other tables simultaneously. Maybe some of my problem is patience with the selection of good preflop starting hands, controlling my tilt when I make mistakes that I should know better not to make (mainly involves confidence in myself and my play), and I'm confused about folding--Ed Miller said in a recent post I read that 2+2'ers fold too much and that actually helped my game tremendously so what are some points that relate to playing well after the flop that when I see that phrase I'd know what to work on next?
Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:30 PM
MD2020 MD2020 is offline
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?

One of the key components of "playing well after the flop" is learning to use the "Enter" key to break up long tracks of text into easy-to-read sentences and paragraphs.

Hope this helps.

Edit: so to show that I'm not a total jerk, I looked over your post again. I see that you mention patience with starting hands as being a problem.

I think that you should focus on fixing this first, as good post flop play won't help you all that much if you're spewing chips before the flop.

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  #3  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?

Here's my take on it. I play crappy 90% of the time, and the other 10% consists of brief runs of inspired play. Of the 90%, I catch enough lucky cards that I maintain, and the other 10% gets me to a little better than breakeven. I think many people are this way, and I think the more you play, the larger the percentage of your play is correct.

As for specific post-flop play, I'll paraphrase Ed Miller in order to give my opinion on one specific item. He maintains that when in doubt (in small stakes games), it's usually better to assume that your opponent is loose rather than tight, thereby making a call or a raise preferable to folding in many situations with no reads, such as a new table.

Now, I suck in the worst way compared to this guy, but I've found that I do better early by waiting to hit a flop before I wade into a betting contest with an unknown. All things being equal, I'm not going to assume he has marginal holdings unless I get reads later on that allow me to take that position. In my brief experience, this has helped me save some bets.

(This does NOT apply nearly so well in short handed games. I'm speaking of full ring games, and you have to take position into consideration.)

I may (and probably will) change my mind on this down the road, but for now I think I'm right enough to make this position +EV.
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  #4  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:51 PM
phish phish is offline
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?

'Playing well after the flop' varies tremendously depending on the stakes you're playing (which determines the types of opponents and usually # of people post-flop).

At your level, playing well after the flop is mainly a mathematical exercise. Bet/raise with the best of it (or if you have proper return) and call if you have proper odds and fold if you don't. Hand reading is important even at this level, but since most your pots are probably multi-way, you can generally assume that someone betting or calling have a reasonable hand and play accordingly.

At higher levels, the mathematical part of it can become almost irrelevant and the psychology becomes paramount.
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  #5  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:54 PM
SmileyEH SmileyEH is offline
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?

You've played 100k hands of .1/.20?

-SmileyEH
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  #6  
Old 12-22-2005, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?

100k total up to .50/1.00

94k at .05/.10
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2005, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?


Yes,the mathematical part probably needs to be more automatic.

People actually play pretty straightforward at his low level but I expect bluffs around every corner and most of the time people have the goods when I call a suspected bluff when I feel I'm behind.

I skip around and play new tables constantly, and yes, without a read on specific players I assume many are playing pretty loose.
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2005, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?


Thanks. I see what you mean--it's hard to even re-read my own post--and I knew that, too--but I wasn't thinking..
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2005, 07:23 PM
jedi jedi is offline
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?

If you're learning to play post-flop, try cutting down on the number of tables you're playing at. It helps you concentrate the game more.
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  #10  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:59 AM
Guthrie Guthrie is offline
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Default Re: Definition of \"playing well after the flop\"?

[ QUOTE ]
100k total up to .50/1.00

94k at .05/.10

[/ QUOTE ]
Move up.
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