Party .5/1: AQo in the SB

zram21 · #1 03-28-2005, 10:31 PM

This is the same table as my AKs post. The button is the loose-passive preflop, but aggressive post flop player from before. The BB appears to be tight-aggressive preflop and passive post flop and UTG+1 seems to be a bit loose passive, but has only been at the table a dozen or so hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Button bets, Hero raises...

First is the preflop limp too weak? I likely would have lost the BB with a raise, but I am out of position and going to be facing at least two opponents so I figured just completeing was better.

What does everyone think of the flop raise? I figured the button could be betting almost any hand here. If you like the raise do you fold to a re-raise by any of the opponents. If they call do you bet the turn if you still don't improve?

Duerig · #2 03-28-2005, 10:39 PM

I would probably raise preflop and lead this flop.

ArturiusX · #3 03-28-2005, 10:41 PM

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I would probably raise preflop and lead this flop.

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Both those are incorrect.

Duerig · #4 03-28-2005, 10:49 PM

Why? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Duerig · #5 03-28-2005, 10:53 PM

Maybe I should give my reasoning first. Preflop, against 2 limpers, I think AQo is a huge favorite so I want to put money into the pot while I'm winning. I think this makes up for the crappy position we have at this point. Plus I could knock out the BB and put some dead money in the middle.

On the flop (assuming that I had raised) I would want to lead because I have 3 outs to catch an A, a backdoor flush and a backdoor straight draw. It's even possible that the unimproved AQ is the best hand right now. Even if I don't improve on the turns, the K on the board might scare the limpers into folding the flop.

ArturiusX · #6 03-28-2005, 10:54 PM

I don't like the preflop raise because we're out of position. Why put extra bets in when the only way we're playing past the flop is if we hit? Put in the minimum and we'll have these limpers dominated if a Q or A is on the flop (which means they'll put in extra bets against us).

Also, betting into 3 opponents with one overcard and a paired board is very dangerous. Its to easy to get raised behind and end up paying extra to see the turn when we could easily be drawing dead anyway. However, if we were last to act, this would be an easy bet.

The check-raise here is interesting, I'd only do it if I knew the button was a habitual bluffer but a weakie at heart. Otherwise I wait for another hand to try something fancy like this.

Vagrant · #7 03-28-2005, 10:57 PM

I would raise preflop. I dont know why that one dude said it is incorrect to raise AQ from sb.

I don't really like the checkraise here. You have one over card and a couple of backdoor draws. The paired board is scary, the ace of hearts might not help you if someone else has a couple hearts in their hand to complete a flush. Plus the pot is very small. I think betting out and folding to a raise or check folding are pretty close courses of action. I think I would prefer to check fold because the pot is just too small .

ArturiusX · #8 03-28-2005, 11:00 PM

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I would raise preflop. I dont know why that one dude said it is incorrect to raise AQ from sb.

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Read the post I just made, can you see my arguement? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Duerig · #9 03-28-2005, 11:04 PM

Thanks for the response. A couple of questions...

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the preflop raise because we're out of position. Why put extra bets in when the only way we're playing past the flop is if we hit? Put in the minimum and we'll have these limpers dominated if a Q or A is on the flop (which means they'll put in extra bets against us).

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This is how I used to rationalize limping with AK in my (more) weak tight days. Is AQ that much worse of a hand in this early position (even against 2 party .5-1.00 limpers)?

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Also, betting into 3 opponents with one overcard and a paired board is very dangerous. Its to easy to get raised behind and end up paying extra to see the turn when we could easily be drawing dead anyway. However, if we were last to act, this would be an easy bet.

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When the board pairs like this I usually assume it is much less likely for someone to be holding one of the last 4s. Also 4 is a very low card. If there was a pair of Ts on the board, I would be more afraid (people are more willing to limp with JT than J4). Another thing -- a lot of these players will wait until the turn to raise if they do have a 4. If the turn comes a blank, we can easily check-fold. (Although if we catch an A, we are a bit screwed).

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The check-raise here is interesting, I'd only do it if I knew the button was a habitual bluffer but a weakie at heart. Otherwise I wait for another hand to try something fancy like this.

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Agreed.

Thoughts?

zram21 · #10 03-28-2005, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The check-raise here is interesting, I'd only do it if I knew the button was a habitual bluffer but a weakie at heart. Otherwise I wait for another hand to try something fancy like this.

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Does he have to be a habitual bluffer? Aggressive post flop players will often bet this hand from the button not because they are bluffing, but because they think they probably have the best hand even if they missed on the flop.