Bad pre-flop call leads to confusion?

jedi · #1 12-29-2005, 03:50 AM

Paradise Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Jedi is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Jedi calls, CO (Villain) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, Jedi calls.

Okay, enough with the pre-flop call. I thought I could outplay the field here. But obviously that led to further problems.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Jedi bets, Villain calls, BB folds, UTG folds.
Standard, or try for a check/raise?

Turn: (5.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Jedi checks, Villain bets, Jedi calls.
Well, the one card I didn't want to see hit, but I now picked up a flush draw. I think it's a standard call.

River: (7.16 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Jedi checks, Villain bets, Jedi calls.

Call here, or chip spewing?

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

bigalt · #2 12-29-2005, 04:09 AM

I'd sort of like to throw in a bet on the turn, giving a pocket pair a chance to fold (or possibly even KQ?), and assuming a call/raise means I'm beat UI, then check/folding the river.

Of course that risks letting that underpair with a diamond take a shot at the pot on the river but I don't think that's happening all that often.

toss · #3 12-29-2005, 04:37 AM

KJo is best raised if UTG is the type you want to isolate. If UTG is tight and unimaginative you'd want to fold. Calling doesn't fit anywhere in your position.

Flop bet good. Checkraising mjust bloats the pot with what may not be the best hand. You risk the flop getting checked through. You encourage people to stay in with weak draws if you checkraise works. Flop bet is good.

I like check calling the turn if you intend to showdown no matter what. By betting the turn we only gain when villain folds KJ or KQ. Villain with either raise or call with a better hand in which case we lose. Or he'll get away from QQ and weaker hands in which case we also lose. Checking lets him make the mistake of betting weaker hands and it saves us a big bet when he has a better hand. We can't fold the turn with our second nut flush draw.

When we check the turn we also encourage villain to bluff with worse hands. For this reason I think we have to showdown and call a bet on the river.

SackUp · #4 12-29-2005, 04:38 AM

Raise preflop. This hand is strong HU against most early limpers and would be nice to isolate and buy the button. Also you can fold Ax hands and other crappers that you don't want to deal with.

Flop bet is fine.

Bet the turn. If you did not pick up the FD then I would b/f to a villain's raise. Given the FD then I would call a raise and c/f the river UI. If Villain just calls the turn then I would reevaluate the river.

toss · #5 12-29-2005, 04:58 AM

We wouldn't want villain fold a pocket pair. In fact we'd like him to bet it. Its true we'd like him to fold KQ, but thats only one hand in villain's wide range. Whats more is that villain won't fold when he has KQ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

jedi · #6 12-30-2005, 04:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop. This hand is strong HU against most early limpers and would be nice to isolate and buy the button. Also you can fold Ax hands and other crappers that you don't want to deal with.

Flop bet is fine.

Bet the turn. If you did not pick up the FD then I would b/f to a villain's raise. Given the FD then I would call a raise and c/f the river UI. If Villain just calls the turn then I would reevaluate the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, good info all. Thanks for the responses. Should I have put Villain on the ATs that he had after he called the flop bet? I thought the flop bet would have chased him away, but apparantely not. Oh well.