Passive play theory vol.1

The Truth · #1 09-01-2005, 05:32 AM

Agressor is loose passive, like 54/4/.4

Where should it be different?
I have my idea, but lets see.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

River: (9 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

catlover · #2 09-01-2005, 08:30 AM

On the flop I think it's close between calling and folding. On the turn I think you should have raised it. If you get reraised you are in a tough spot but that's poker.

On the river I think it's close between calling like you did, and raising to prevent an overcall.

TStoneMBD · #3 09-01-2005, 08:39 AM

looks good. a turn raise makes alot of sense but i dont think you could be comfortable folding to a 3bet because im not really sure what range of hands a .4AF player would 3bet on this turn. he might 3bet a smaller flush then Qh along with a set.

#4 09-01-2005, 10:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Agressor is loose passive, like 54/4/.4

Where should it be different?
I have my idea, but lets see.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

River: (9 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
PREFLOP: Standard. FLOP: If the aggressor truly is this passive, I think you should fold this hand out, your overs are probably worthless and the QH is not enough incentive to continue, if you had the KH than I would continue in the hand. Another thing, If you really want to call here, raising the flop may be better than calling since your opponent is so passive, that way if you dont improve on the turn you may be able to take your free card, but this play really is pointless in this spot since there may not be a card in the deck that can help you. TURN: All you have is a marginal call here so raising is out of the question. Hitting the queen makes your hand look prettier but it doesnt change your situation. You are still trailing here vs a passive bettor so there is no need to protect your hand. This is another reason you shouldve folded the flop, becuz you can end up going too far if the turn card gives you one of those "phantom Improvements" If you do decide to raise you have an easy fold if your passive opponent reraises you since that would mean your flush outs are no good. RIVER: Once you get this far you should call and hope for the best, I will be very surprised if you win this one.

adspar · #5 09-01-2005, 02:53 PM

I know the villain has an AF of .4, but that is from playing over half his hands. I don't know if you can exactly correlate that to like the aggression of 25vp$ip/0.8AF but his bets aren't nearly as scary as a 20/0.4 so it might not be such a doom and gloom scenario.

jdock99 · #6 09-02-2005, 06:21 PM

I play a little lower than you do, but in my games even the most passive player decides to 'take a stand' every once in a while and will donk bet all the way through w/ nothing or a draw. I find this to be especially true when a passive player 'donks' in a spot that most players with a strong hand against a TAG will check/call the flop and check/raise the turn or go straight for a check/raise on the flop. I find that players w/ high passivity numbers will often play semi-strong hands and draws pretty standardly. They are so passive overall mainly due to the junk hands, like when the CC a raise w/ Q5 off and then when they flop nothing take 2 off any board w/ no ace.

legend42 · #7 09-02-2005, 07:33 PM

I think this is a good point. The other significant PT stat here is his CR%. If it's anything above never, I think you have to take into account that he could be doing this with a naked Ah or something.

lil feller · #8 09-03-2005, 12:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On the river I think it's close between calling like you did, and raising to prevent an overcall

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Why wouldn't we want an overcall? No better hand is folding for 2 bets here, I wouldn't think, and anybody with 2pair or better is certainly raising the turn. Raising this river is horrible, simply horrible.

lf

lil feller · #9 09-03-2005, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know the villain has an AF of .4, but that is from playing over half his hands. I don't know if you can exactly correlate that to like the aggression of 25vp$ip/0.8AF but his bets aren't nearly as scary as a 20/0.4 so it might not be such a doom and gloom scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does anybody have a link that helps explain the relation between VPIP and AF? I think I get it, but don't want to bog down the board with repetive discussion. I'll try a search too.

thanks,

lf

KidPokerX · #10 09-03-2005, 02:23 AM

I dunno. I would definately call this flop, if not raise it right there. I may end up raising if I still truly thought my KQ was still good. With the Qh you may be able to knock out someone with a Kh (or even Ah) while still maintaining the free card possibility if you don't improve. This is in an ideal situation of course, but more often than not a quick raise right out on the flop will put you in better situations.