Flopped 4 of a kind, did I max my money?

bilbo-san · #1 07-13-2004, 03:36 PM

Well, another question is whether or not calling 2 bets PF with 44 is a good call or not. The table seemed pretty loose and there had been a lot of cold calling so I thought the button and the blinds might also call. My plan is obviously flopping a set or folding so maybe this is a loose call.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, Hero calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Obviously my only concern is maxing my money.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds.

I was worried (justifiably, it turned out) UTG+2 would fold to a raise, but should I raise anyway?

River: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Obviously would have been nice if this card gave MP3 a good flush, but that's probably what HE feared.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

SnakeRat · #2 07-13-2004, 04:58 PM

You should have folded preflop.

You should have raised the turn, people will pay more on the turn than they will on the river if they are on draws.

If they have strong hands already like JJ-AA/ AJ/22, you will get boatloads of action.

Sent · #3 07-13-2004, 04:58 PM

Wow pretty loose calling a raise with 44, anyway since you played it and hit the nuts I think you milked it for all it is worth.

-Sent

SomethingClever · #4 07-13-2004, 05:01 PM

I'd fold preflop to 2 bets cold with 44.

I like the smooth-call on the flop.

Tough decision whether to raise the turn or not. I might, just to give MP3 the idea that the 2 of clubs helped me in some way. As for whether it will force UTG to fold, well, if he just caught the 4-flush, he's not folding. And if he's chasing with something else, he's probably not going to call even a single bet.

The other issue, though, is that if you raise, MP3 may not lead with a bet on the river.

I think what it comes down to is how aggressive MP3 is. If you're confident that he won't fold the turn, and that he'll at least call a river bet, I might try a raise.

Vern · #5 07-13-2004, 07:18 PM

Small pairs PF get their power from being HU or against a large field and getting implied odds. With implied odds you need to win 8 times the initial pre-flop money you put in to make money in the long run (assuming when the board does not give you a set or an OESD you fold the flop). In this case, you put in a BB Pre-Flop so you need to win at least 8 BB's to make up for those times you miss. For the hand you put in 4.5BB to win 7.25 BB and in the long run this is a loser play since you did not get past 8 times your pre-flop contribution. If there had been more limpers before the raise it might be ok to call, getting more players in PF reduces the number of bets you need to make up post flop. On the play, raise the turn when people on draws will still pay you. Raising the river will be called by people who think they have a chance to win, no missed draws.

bilbo-san · #6 07-14-2004, 05:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Small pairs PF get their power from being HU or against a large field and getting implied odds. With implied odds you need to win 8 times the initial pre-flop money you put in to make money in the long run (assuming when the board does not give you a set or an OESD you fold the flop). In this case, you put in a BB Pre-Flop so you need to win at least 8 BB's to make up for those times you miss. For the hand you put in 4.5BB to win 7.25 BB and in the long run this is a loser play since you did not get past 8 times your pre-flop contribution. If there had been more limpers before the raise it might be ok to call, getting more players in PF reduces the number of bets you need to make up post flop. On the play, raise the turn when people on draws will still pay you. Raising the river will be called by people who think they have a chance to win, no missed draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, this explanation of raising on the turn is interesting. But won't I scare any draws because of A) the paired board and B) the fact that only 3 ppl are in the pot? If I was on a draw I would rather not pay 2BB (as UTG) to keep going with only 2 people to pay me off.

Btw, you are all correct, I see in hindsight, folding pre-flop was the right play. Even if one or two ppl cold call behind me, I'm not getting great odds.

Must...control...self... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

SnakeRat · #7 07-14-2004, 06:08 AM

You give your opponents too much credit.
People on PartyPoker 1/2 tend not to consider the board beyond, "ooooooh 2 clubs, me have 2 clubs, maybe me win." The fact that the board is paired doesnt scare fish off flush draws, in fact I dont think the board being double-paired would scare some of these guys off of flush draws.

You are ignoring the chance that one of them might have a hand which is strong enough to give you good action on both the turn and river, in which case you miss out by waiting until the river.