Borgata - Collusion?

Just got back from a four day trip in AC and I ran across what I thought was nothing out of the ordinary, but turned into an issue at the table.

10 a.m. Sunday - I sit down at a 2/5 NL which has two guys who appear to be friends (White guy wearing a party poker hoodie and an Indian guy) both who had been up all night. After over hearing some table conversation I learn they are both players from the closed Aces High club in NY and are down in AC because of all the raids lately. Two regular 5/10 players now sit down at my table and within 10 minutes the trouble begins.

Everytime the two friends are in hands they are very observant of each other, and everytime the white guy shows down a hand and loses, whether he had a worst hand or was bluffing the Indian would ask to see the white guys hand that he was mucking. This happened over and over and then the 5/10 player raises hell. "Floor! Dealer, he can't do that once he mucks he mucks, that showing hand B.S. is for collusion". An argument breaks out and finally the dealer and floor decide that once he mucks they will no longer be showed.

What do you guys think, is this a way to tune the way they communicate with each other via collusion?

[magoo]

Moderators...please!!!!

Why the attitude?

This is a serious question, I hit up AC once a month and have run into some sketchy people at Trop and Borgota and I want to know as much as I can to protect myself from collusion and when to leave a game as it has gone bad.

Comments are welcome.

[BottlesOf]

AT 8:40, I'm usually in the shower. At 9:16, the subway.

To the OP: Each cardroom has its own IWTSTH rules and collusion rules. I don't think there's anything wrong about speaking up if you aren't comfortable, but there are probably better ways to do it.

[MaxPower]

The 5/10 player was not claiming that they were colluding. He was just saying that you are only supposed to ask to see someones cards if you suspect collusion and not just because you are curious.

[ QUOTE ]
The 5/10 player was not claiming that they were colluding. He was just saying that you are only supposed to ask to see someones cards if you suspect collusion and not just because you are curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.. I think I may have been unclear. I will try to keep it simple.

The Indian and the Irishman are friends. Everytime the Irishman looses a hand at show-down with another player at the table, the Indian then asks the dealer to see what his friend the Irishman lost with and the dealer flips over the Irishman's mucked hand once the Irishman agrees.

The 5/10 player we will call him Bob, sits down and observes this a few times and then tells the dealer they can't do that. Once the player mucks his hand its done. He said that the Indian is asking to see the Irishmans hand for collusion purposes. Everyone at the table argues, floor is called over and it is finally agreed upon that mucked hands are mucked hands, and his friend the Indian cannot request to see the Irishmans hands.

I am leaning towards the belief that the 5/10 player was right because two other 5/10 regulars at the table all agreed they should not be doing that and it is sketchy.

Just wanted to get other seasoned players thoughts on this, is it collusion and how?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The 5/10 player was not claiming that they were colluding. He was just saying that you are only supposed to ask to see someones cards if you suspect collusion and not just because you are curious.

[/ QUOTE ]
No.. I think I may have been unclear. I will try to keep it simple.

The Indian and the Irishman are friends. Everytime the Irishman looses a hand at show-down with another player at the table, the Indian then asks the dealer to see what his friend the Irishman lost with and the dealer flips over the Irishman's mucked hand once the Irishman agrees.

The 5/10 player we will call him Bob, sits down and observes this a few times and then tells the dealer they can't do that. Once the player mucks his hand its done. He said that the Indian is asking to see the Irishmans hand for collusion purposes. Everyone at the table argues, floor is called over and it is finally agreed upon that mucked hands are mucked hands, and his friend the Indian cannot request to see the Irishmans hands.

I am leaning towards the belief that the 5/10 player was right because two other 5/10 regulars at the table all agreed they should not be doing that and it is sketchy.

Just wanted to get other seasoned players thoughts on this, is it collusion and how?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm confused. If Player A and B start together (white dude, Indian dude) and players C and D get to the table. And then B asks to see A's hands all the time, how can C or D or anyone else for that matter, thinkg B and A are colluding?

[Bascule]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm confused. If Player A and B start together (white dude, Indian dude) and players C and D get to the table. And then B asks to see A's hands all the time, how can C or D or anyone else for that matter, thinkg B and A are colluding?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. How could colluders benefit from showing their hands at showdown? It sounds to me like the Indian is trying to learn from how the Irishman plays his hands.

Joe I think you might be misunderstanding what the player was calling out for. IWTSTH stands for I want to see that hand, and it's designed to stop collusion. Example: two players are working together to shut other people out of a pot, betting and raising. IWTSTH is designed so someone with a good hand can see what his opponent had if he suspects the person was colluding with others instead of playing the strength of his hand. The rule sucks, there's numerous threads on B & M about how it's ineffective, doesn't work, gets abused, etc. The 5/10 player was calling the floor to stop these guys from continually evoking this rule, but it doesn't mean he was actually accusing either of these guys of collusion.

[CCx]

The IWTSTH explanations in this thread seem to be the reasoning behind the commotion at the table - it's a rule that should be used only when suspected collusion is taking place, not as a "checking the hand history to see what they mucked" courtesy.

The only way I could see this as being collusion is if the 5/10 player thought players A and B were signalling to each other in some way regarding their hands, and player A wanted to see the hands that were being mucked to be sure the signals were correct. Extremely farfetched, but not beyond a Borgata regular.