early stages against total idiots

[stoli]

This keeps on happening.... It seems very often when I'm playing MTTs I will raise with a good hand. Get called in at least one spot, make a bet and either on the flop or turn get check-raised some ridiculous amount or my entire stack. Usually this is coming at the beginning of the tourney when the blinds are still like 10/15 and there's a 100 bucks in the pot. The people doing it are total idiots but I don't want to risk my entire tourney on a marginal hand in the first 15 minutes of the tourney. Should I be much more tight at the start of the tourney and wait for these players to be eliminated. Any suggestions? Examples below.


Example: 1
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG+1 (t985)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)
Hero (t1055)
CO (t1090)
Button (t900)
SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t985)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, ,4 folds,Hero raises to t45, 2 folds, SB calls t35, BB calls t30, UTG calls t30.

Flop: (t177.50) :7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], j [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], t [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB is all-in [940], UTG folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1117.50


Example 2:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t955)
SB (t985)
BB (t970)
UTG (t955)
Hero (t1010)
UTG+2 (t1150)
MP1 (t900)
MP2 (t1120)
MP3 (t955)
CO (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with :a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], :j [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to t60, 7 folds, BB calls t45.

Flop: (t127.50) :4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], :9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], :k [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t115, BB raises to t325, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t567.50

Why are you raising with these two hands in these positions? That's a dangerous habit.

First hand, it was either someone getting excited about having 89 and hitting their straight, or they had a flush draw and thought it was the nuts.

Second one is an easy laydown once check raised, I think you overbet it there though, I would have bet about 75-100 there.

Some people like being super tight in the start of them when there is alot of donks, but I like to loosen up some myself, still play good hands well, but try to double up because of a donk player who doesn't know any better. I mean, if you don't get all that money, either the donks will eliminate themselves til there is a superdonk, or other good players will be feasting on them.

I don't see a problem with folding in either of those hands though.

[daveymck]

I think this is the dilema thats probably been discussed a lot here, do you play tight and hold out for the later rounds or dry and outdonk the donks and double up.

In the end I think its down to your style of play and confidence at a being able to play well postflop and b accepting the fact you will have a higher rate of early bustouts.

Personally I am in the tight early camp and probably would not of played either hand early on a party 1,000 chip tournament but may have played the AJs on a 1,500 slower blind UB one.

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you raising with these two hands in these positions? That's a dangerous habit.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts too. You gotta let those hands go, or, maybe, just maybe, call with them. Definitely not raising pf with them.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the dilema thats probably been discussed a lot here, do you play tight and hold out for the later rounds or dry and outdonk the donks and double up.

In the end I think its down to your style of play and confidence at a being able to play well postflop and b accepting the fact you will have a higher rate of early bustouts.

Personally I am in the tight early camp and probably would not of played either hand early on a party 1,000 chip tournament but may have played the AJs on a 1,500 slower blind UB one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm trying to find a middle ground. I've worked very hard at developing my post-flop skills. This has benefitted me greatly when I'm not getting any cards because often I can bluff in the right spots to pick up a few small pots and stay in it. Plus I can play a few more hands because I can usually outplay them.

When you're not getting any cards, then you'll play hell trying to stay ahead of the blinds, if you're too tight. If you're too loose, you run the risk of bleeding chips and again getting blinded out.

What is most important, I think, is playing semi-loose early, <u>if you can get away from a hand</u> . If you can't, stay with tight play. What we're seeing in these two examples it loose play from a player that doesn't quite understand how to play the style.

Stoli, if you're going to play hands like this OOP, then you want to play them cheaply--not raising marginal hands like these--and be able to get out of them if you don't hit the flop strongly. Middle pair is not flopping strongly, as you're out of position and can be drained of a lot of chips. I'd advise you to tighten up...a lot.

CJ

[zambonidrivr]

both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
both of these are pre-flop folds and you are a donkey for playing them. seriously, get a clue. i am not tying to be a dick here, but kj and aj is about as marginal as it comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. These are very good limping hands especially at level one. You just have to remember that you are playing KJs for two-pair or better. Folding AJs preflop is weak-tight.

[Sam T.]

These specific hands are folds. People love, love, love JT, so if the flop is JTx, and villains go nuts, someone is on two pair.

More generally, you don't want to donk it up, but the point that you have to get the fishs' chips before someone else does is very important. Figure out who the idiots are at the table, and make it your busienss to get in hands with them with any reasonable holding. They don't care about kickers much, so (to take your KJ example) top pair, king-kicker is probably good. While some argue that TPTK is not a hand with which to go to felt, that is simply not true in the first hour of a $20+2.

Also, when you flop big, remember that they don't understand stacks and betting, so get them in on the intallment plan. They don't realize that if you bet half your stack you are pot committed, so bet whatever you think they'll call.

In these huge tournaments, your goal should not be to get to the first break with your stack in tact, but to get there with 2x your starting stack.

[stoli]

Thanks to those who took the time to look at this theoretically and not just saying fold pre-flop. Some background, I play lots of tourneys have read all the 2+2 books and have done decent when playing tight aggressive. By doing well I mean I make the money consistently but not final tables or major cashes consistently. After reading the tournament reports of adanthar and the others I was trying to incorporate playing more hands like they do, but have been running into these situations. I was looking for responses from players who play a little more loose and succesfully play with the chip accumulation style. A discussion of theory between the chip accumulation theory and the survivalist theory is cool too, but take the time to come up with something better than, "I don't mean to be a dick but these are marginal, just fold."


I also find it interesting that you tell me to get a clue because....

Harrington says in early position when nobody has entered the pot: AJ suited use a mixture of half raises and half calls. But you say this is a clear fold pre-flop.

"With KJs in middle position I would play in all middle positions with a mixture of 40 percent calls and 60 percent raises"


If that is your response to the question then don't answer because you didn't answer the question. Maybe preface your response with I would be careful playing these hands (which I'm aware of), or this isn't my style of playing. I didn't ask are these good hands to play pre-flop I asked how is best to respond to the check-raises and huge bets that i suspect may be bluffs or hands similar to my own.