Calling Station

[radioheadfan]

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And I disagree mightily with your "Even at 25NL 6Max, players don't reraise with just anything." I was reraised last night with both 88 and ATo. This is a great chance for you to be aggressive with a premium hand and take down a big pot, at least in my eyes.

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I did put a 10% of random/weaker holdings into villian's hand range preflop. Read the entire post.

Also, what good does it do me to get "aggressive" like you say and fold out an improved AK/AQ/AJ/whatever when they will continue to bluff if I just call.

About the river, raising only has value if I think QQ/JJ will call a push and I have to be fairly convinced villian has these as opposed to AA.

The weak betting pattern looks like bets intended to get max value from his AA or attempt a series of cheapish bluffs. Neither one is consistent with QQ or JJ. QQ or JJ should be wanting to charge my "AK" maximum value to try and draw out. This makes a river raise questionable in my eyes, as I'm either looking at the AA or a hand weaker than my own that can't call a push. Notice, that if villian has some wierd two pair or set raising has no value either. The river push only seems to make sense against QQ/JJ and this range seems to narrow too make it worth it.

Anyone care to comment further on the merits of a river raise?

[TheBong]

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And I disagree mightily with your "Even at 25NL 6Max, players don't reraise with just anything." I was reraised last night with both 88 and ATo. This is a great chance for you to be aggressive with a premium hand and take down a big pot, at least in my eyes.

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I did put a 10% of random/weaker holdings into villian's hand range preflop. Read the entire post.


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I have. So without any read on this player, you are going to assume that he will reraise preflop with nearly 20% of any possible holdings, and do it where he'll be out of position the entire hand? Any pair, AK, AQ, AJ, and 10% of other holdings is probably quite close to 15, maybe 20%.

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Also, what good does it do me to get "aggressive" like you say and fold out an improved AK/AQ/AJ/whatever when they will continue to bluff if I just call.


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OK, so if you call his bet on the flop and then he checks to you on the turn, what would you deduce? Again, you have said you have no read on this villain, so why get fancy with him? You don't know if he'll continue to bluff with overs, you don't know if he reraised TT preflop and has you scraping for 2 outs to hit a king.

Another question for you - is it that bad if you take the pot down right here? Sure, your line may have been more profitable this time, but would it be that bad to make a solid raise on the flop and have the opponent give it up?

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About the river, raising only has value if I think QQ/JJ will call a push and I have to be fairly convinced villian has these as opposed to AA.


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If you really thought he had AA, why are you seeing the river anyways? The only information you have is that he reraised preflop, and he's bet into you 3 times.

And, since he's bet into you 3 times, and you've never shown any strength except to passively call - I gather he would definitely call down a push, thinking you were trying to take the pot away, maybe with AT yourself.

I see QQ and JJ overpairs calling pushes a good amount in thees 25NL games.

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The weak betting pattern looks like bets intended to get max value from his AA or attempt a series of cheapish bluffs.


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Or could be he's trying to get maximum value from his QQ or JJ overpair.

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Neither one is consistent with QQ or JJ. QQ or JJ should be wanting to charge my "AK" maximum value to try and draw out.


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Yes, but again, you have no read. He's probably just a fish trying to make some money off his queens, honestly. If he has aces, then you were beat the whole time. I think you're giving this man far too much credit for knowing so little about him.

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This makes a river raise questionable in my eyes, as I'm either looking at the AA or a hand weaker than my own that can't call a push.


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Again, this is $25NL - QQ can call a push here, JJ can call a push here, AT could call a push here. He's shown you strength, if you don't think it's aces how can you NOT raise?

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Notice, that if villian has some wierd two pair or set raising has no value either. The river push only seems to make sense against QQ/JJ and this range seems to narrow too make it worth it.



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You might not do it against a player you know something about. 25NL players will not only reraise with a variety of subpar hands, they'll also call down with them as well. I could honestly fathom an ATs reraising you back from the blind thinking you were "stealing" and he was "defending" and calling you down here. Again, if you really think he has aces, why are you still here on the river? That's a feel thing.

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Anyone care to comment further on the merits of a river raise?

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Not saying your line was wrong, or mine with raising would be any better, just trying to provoke more conversation. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm interested to know what he actually had, as I'm thinking it was definitely QQ or JJ, and not AA.

[radioheadfan]

So villian started the hand to cover me and I have about $20 more to raise him with on the river. (remember the stacks started fairly deep). Is he really gonna call $20 more with KT/QT/AT or QQ/JJ on this river? (I'm throwing those hands with a T in for conversation's sake, cuz I don't think most of these 25NL players reraise with them, maybe ATs, but not the others.)

I think the hand is interesting b/c of the stack sizes and the potential action should I choose to raise any of the streets.

Without a solid read on the guy, the optimal way to play the hand is by creating an image of the typical 25NL player in our minds. That seems to be the challenge here. WTF is this clown holding!? And what is he willing to call with / lay down?

I'm interested in coming up with the line that maximizes profits against the typical party 25NL 6MAX UNKNOWN.

Maybe the answer is reraise preflop....who knows....

[TheBong]

So what happened? You haven't posted any results, did he fold to a big river bet, or did he call you down, and what with?

[Spladle Master]

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I'm interested in coming up with the line that maximizes profits against the typical party 25NL 6MAX UNKNOWN.

Maybe the answer is reraise preflop....who knows....

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Basically, if you get kings at a $25 table on Party and there hasn't been a flop yet, raise every chance you get.

Unless maybe your goal is to pull off a limp-reraise. But after the initial limp, my advice stands. And on most tables, the initial limp is a mistake.

[radioheadfan]

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I'm interested in coming up with the line that maximizes profits against the typical party 25NL 6MAX UNKNOWN.

Maybe the answer is reraise preflop....who knows....

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Basically, if you get kings at a $25 table on Party and there hasn't been a flop yet, raise every chance you get.

Unless maybe your goal is to pull off a limp-reraise. But after the initial limp, my advice stands. And on most tables, the initial limp is a mistake.

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I did not limp, I made a small opening bet of 3x BB. Reraising defines my hand too clearly and plus I wanted to trap this guy since I was in position.

[radioheadfan]

After I smooth call the river, villian shows me an AK offsuit.

[TrailofTears]

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Raise.


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[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Spladle Master]

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I did not limp, I made a small opening bet of 3x BB.

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I know that, I was just giving an example of a time when it might be okay to not raise when you have kings on a $25 buy-in Party NL hold 'em table.

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Reraising defines my hand too clearly and plus I wanted to trap this guy since I was in position.

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Reraising only defines your hand clearly against a thinking player. Odds are that this is not a thinking player. Trapping can easily backfire but there is very little upside to it.

[TrailofTears]

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Trapping can easily backfire but there is very little upside to it.

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Getting JJ and QQ to bet into you on a board of unders doesn't count because....?