Missed bets, need chastisement.

Eeegah · #1 07-10-2005, 07:10 PM

Posting as a reminder to never do something like this again as much as anything. PFB is SLAP, small blind is LAP.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, Button folds.

River: (17 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Kd Qc (two pair, kings and queens).
Hero has 4h Ah (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 21 BB. 

I almost certainly should have 3-bet the turn when checkraised, but with two to act behind me who had already put in a bet I kindof was looking for overcalls; I'm kindof torn as to whether or not that was correct. The flop check-raise seemed like a good idea at the time in case an A hit, but in hindsight I probably should have bet out to sweeten the pot in case my flush hit. If I did so I'd likely be raised by the PFR; would I have 3-bet in that case?

Buck_65 · #2 07-10-2005, 07:16 PM

You're trying to be fancy. Stop devising plans to extract the absolute maximum in these situations, it only leads to leaving bets on the table. When you have the nuts in a big pot with several players who aren't going anywhere, CLICK YOUR RAISE BUTTON!!

By the way, your avatar freaks me out.

Shillx · #3 07-10-2005, 07:18 PM

Flop - Check/raising the flop is okay, but betting out (intending to get 3-bets) is probably better. The only poor option is check/calling since you pass up on both value and the ability to maybe fold a better ace.

Turn - Don't stop with the nuts. The LAST thing that people will figure you for is a flush after your flop check/raise.

River - You have to make raises when people are drawing (or in this case drawing thin to dead). A hand like J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] isn't going to call your river raise, but it will call your turn 3-bet with a OESD and the 2nd nut flush draw. FWIW raising the river is MUCH better then calling in this spot, but 3-betting the turn is the best option.

Brad

TomBrooks · #4 07-10-2005, 07:56 PM

TURN: I don't mind your call on the turn to get overcalls. Raising screams nut or 2nd nut flush and UTG would have likely folded and SB would call, so that would be a breakeven, but then SB likely wouldn't have bet into you on the river, so you would have lost one bet by raising probably.

FLOP: I don't like your raise here because you want callers. You might do better by them being more likely to stay in if you don't make them face two. If you connect, it's going to be to the nuts unless the board pairs. On the other hand, you might be able to buy overcard outs for your weak Ace by raising, so maybe the raise is good or neutral.

TomBrooks · #5 07-10-2005, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop - Check/raising the flop is okay, but betting out (intending to get 3-bets) is probably better.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya, I like this better because button raised preflop. If he raises again he traps the field for you.

SoftcoreRevolt · #6 07-10-2005, 08:47 PM

You really need to think about where you are compared to the field when you check raise. He raised PF, and a King came off. That is likely a very good card for villain, so lead the flop. If he just calls, so be it, but you probably drag a lot of people into the flop from your one bet who may stay in later. The check raise really just scares people here when he is very likely to raise on his own letting you three bet, so now the field faces 2 cold again, but they've already put money in and will be much more likely to call based on the odds, and fish logic that "hey that's my money, I better call and protect my investment!"

Continue going nuts on the turn you have people stuck in the middle with you.

Rev. Good Will · #7 07-10-2005, 09:27 PM

c/r'ng the flop, and having 3 people face 2 cold is veeeery counter productive, you don't wanna knock people out here, you wanna trap bets (bet/3bet)

why slow down turn? no chance of house, even if somebody has a set, you have 33 safe river cards... so put more $ in there!

nickg1532 · #8 07-10-2005, 09:41 PM

the good thing about check raising this flop is it will help you clean up some Ace outs. Since the pot is getting pretty big, this isn't a horrible play, but like shillx said , betting hoping to get raised so you can 3 bet is better in terms of pushing your equity edge.

and like everyone else said, just go crazy on the turn.

Jaran · #9 07-11-2005, 01:27 AM

Lead out on the flop. A c/r faces the field with 2 cold, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do here. Then you can bet/3bet if you hit the turn.

-Jaran

benkath1 · #10 07-11-2005, 01:40 AM

I'd say you missed about 2 bb on this hand. Going for overcalls is fun, but you don't want to make a habit out of it. 3-bet the check raiser and he may just cap. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Looking at it again, it's not that bad. I think you got an extra bet out of UTG+2.