AK gets raised on the turn

[jjacky]

semi tough table, more on the tight side. no further reads.

unfortunately i can't use a converter. here is the action:

an early limper calls, hero raises with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], two middle player and the limper call.

9.5 sb, 4 players. flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] - 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
the limper checks, hero bets, first middle position player calls, everyone else folds.

pot is 5.75 BB, 2 players. turn is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
hero bets and gets raised.

what's your line for the rest of the hand? elaborate.

[crunchy1]

3-bet. Call a cap and check/call the river. If Villian calls lead the river and call a raise.

[jjacky]

what about the threat of aces up or a set? do you consider it to be low enough?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
what about the threat of aces up or a set? do you consider it to be low enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's your read.... At a semi-tough/tight table how often do you think the first MP cold-caller is cold-calling (with 1 previous limper) with 99,77,33,A9,A7,A3?

Depending on his read of you and the limper I could see a tough player 3-betting a couple of those hands - likely 99 - which also happens to be the only reasonable hand I see him cold-calling with. I think it's a lot more likely that you're up against a weaker Ace-broadway, or chopping with AK, or picking off a bluff attempt.

[mdeck]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet. Call a cap and check/call the river. If Villian calls lead the river and call a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any other way to play the hand other than this line.

[jjacky]

ok, here is why i bothered you with this hand: i found a piece of advice about it in "middle limit hold'em" by ciaffone and brier. the question was in the main post, and thats the answer:
"fold. similar to many problems in this chapter, when you get raised on the turn, you are almost always beat when having a pair. (on occasion, you are up against a tricky player who likes to semi-bluff draws on the expensive street.) there is $175 in the pot and it costs you $20 to call. these are pot odds of 9-to-1. if your opponent is raising on aces up, then the number of outs you have depends upon his second pair. with him having aces over nines, you have three outs (any king). [...] so one might conclude that on average you have about six outs, which is a 7-to-1 shot, and therefore you have a call. however, if your opponent does have two pair, you do not know which two they are, and thus may lose additional money on the river. furthermore, your opponent may have a set, in which case you are drawing dead. since he cold-called your preflop rasie, he is more likely to have done this with 9-9, 7-7, 3-3, or A-9 than some other holding."

thoughts?

[akvsaq]

I don't like Ciaffone's advice on this in the types of loose-passive games we're playing. I think his advice sounds a bit too weak-tight. I like crunchy1's analysis that it is unlikely that he has a hand that beats yours but I would not 3 bet the turn. I would simply call the raise, then check/call the river. This is what I would do but NOT fully confident. I'd like to see a discussion about this matter by othr posters.

[Moneyline]

[ QUOTE ]
thoughts?

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My thought is that Ciaffone is giving bad advice. Yeah, the pot is small, but your opponent could easily have just a pair of aces with a lower kicker. Also, if your opponent has observed you making frequent folds on the turn, he could have total garbage and is raising because he knows you won't continue with less than the nuts. So not only is this advice not good for the current hand, but it opens you up to problems on future hands because your opponenets will take shots at you.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
fold. similar to many problems in this chapter, when you get raised on the turn, you are almost always beat when having a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is very limit-dependent - which you didn't reference in the OP.