AKo - Call a turn raise and fold to river bet - Page 2

Mister Z · #11 10-07-2005, 04:04 PM

Unless this table is made up of players that are actually paying attention to pot odds, reads, etc, I see no reason not to raise this preflop.

Then I'm leading the flop.

jskills · #12 10-07-2005, 04:51 PM

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Also - I have to throw in - why are we not raising AK preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]Although it is not the focus of my post, I figured that this might bring up some debate. I normally do so with AKo and two opponents, and will be optional with more players. I simply chose not to.

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That's cool. Playing AK OOP vs a large field is pretty difficult sometimes, but in an unraised pot, I believe you have a great enough percentage of the equity with yourt holding that a raise is correct. I am not one to dwell too much on preflop, so I'm not trying to bust your balls here.

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My intention was to see how others would handle the turn, as I feel that most players would be overaggressive with this hand. Wouldn't SB bet out rather than wait for a check-raise if I am still ahead? Granted, I stated that he was on tilt, but his "tilt" play normally resides preflop. Postflop he's a typical loose player.

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Tilt can manifest itself in a number of ways - both pre and post flop, no? Regardless, from a purely objective standpoint, what range of hands do you put SB on that beats yours?

His turn check raise makes absolutely no sense in light of the fact that no one even bet the flop. If he's holding an ace or just made two pair, why bother risking letting it get checked on through once again?

With TPTK vs a tilting loose opponent on a board that is pretty drawless, I don't see how you can think you're beat. The pot seems big enough for you to call one more bet. And if you do think you're beat, why are you calling the turn C/R? Shouldn't you fold right there? Are you calling the C/R in order to see the river in order to hit one of your three kings ? I am just trying to understand your thinking in the line you took here.

Thanks,
J

#13 10-07-2005, 04:54 PM

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Live at the Mecca, 9/18 nine-handed. Table is typical loose with minor bursts of aggression. Two limpers to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]:K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I check. Four to the flop.

FLOP: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked around. Still four players.

TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB (loosey-goosey) checks, I bet, EP limper (tight by Commerce standards) calls, LP limper (loosest player in the free world) calls. SB now check-raises. I call as do the others. Four to the river.

RIVER: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets. I fold...

All comments welcomed.

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I haven't read any of the resposes yet.

I would like to see you raise pre-flop. Make a continuation bet on the flop. Bet your ace on the turn, call the check raise from the SB and call a river bet.

I think this hand playes out differently if you raise pre-flop.

onegymrat · #14 10-07-2005, 05:05 PM

Yes, I agree. But can't you see I'm trying to overlook that and trying not to tell jskills that he's right! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

onegymrat · #15 10-07-2005, 05:15 PM

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With TPTK vs a tilting loose opponent on a board that is pretty drawless, I don't see how you can think you're beat. The pot seems big enough for you to call one more bet. And if you do think you're beat, why are you calling the turn C/R? Shouldn't you fold right there? Are you calling the C/R in order to see the river in order to hit one of your three kings ? I am just trying to understand your thinking in the line you took here.

[/ QUOTE ]Ah ha! This is exactly what I've been looking for to discuss. Three betting of course was on my mind initially, but this is how I saw it. EP had a weak ace, LP is drawing, and SB either has two pair (A-3?) or a made straight (4-2). Both of which would make sense to check the flop and then check-raise the turn. So I had to convince myself which one he had (for reasons in which I explained previously). I still had outs (second pair and/or K), and now the pot is big. I decided to call a river bet should the board pair and fold unimproved.

SeaEagle · #16 10-07-2005, 05:43 PM

Ouch. What a horrible fold.

When you didn't raise PF, you were disguising your hand. Isn't the whole point of disguising your hand to trap others into overplaying theirs?

There is no logical hand that sb is c/ring on the turn. The flop was checked around so most players, even total donks, know enough to bet the turn rather than let it be checked around again, especially with a scare card coming on the turn. So sb could have: A hand you're drawing dead to, 2 pair, Ax, a piece of the flop, total junk.

You are ahead of the two limpers and you're getting 10-1 and maybe as much as 12-1 on the river call. Sure, you're probably losing, but you're not losing anywhere near the 91%-93% of the time it would take to make this a -EV call.

BigBrother · #17 10-07-2005, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Live at the Mecca, 9/18 nine-handed. Table is typical loose with minor bursts of aggression. Two limpers to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]:K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I check. Four to the flop.

FLOP: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked around. Still four players.

TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB (loosey-goosey) checks, I bet, EP limper (tight by Commerce standards) calls, LP limper (loosest player in the free world) calls. SB now check-raises. I call as do the others. Four to the river.

RIVER: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets. I fold...

All comments welcomed.

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My initial thought is that SB is check-raising an Ace and doesn't realize you have top kicker (isn't that the whole reason for not raising preflop?). So you call the checkraise (other two will pad the pot and be drawing slim if you are ahead so no need to 3-bet and lose more if behind), and call the river bet/bet if checked to/fold to a river raise.

The other possibility is that SB has a small set (555 or 333) and was trapping the field on the flop, knew someone would represent the Ace and cjeck-raised to cash in on the big streets. Possibly more likely to have 2pair or the set since he check-raised and risked a flush draw getting there for free.

If SB shows down any 4 I vomit. Calling 24 from the SB into 3 opponents in a 1/3 blind structure is beyond loosey-goosey.

That said your loosest LP limper could easily have a 4 if he's a stick-around type.

Overall the pot is big enough (8.5BB after rake assuming both limpers are going to call the turn c/r)and you should be good enough of the time with a disguised TPTK here that you need to pay off 2BB to get to showdown.

I see that as the biggest problem with checking the AK preflop OOP into loose opponents. You disguised your hand so they don't know where you stand, but as a result you don't know where you stand either. The variation for deception might be more effective against tighter, more aggressive, and/or fewer opponents.

ZenMusician · #18 10-07-2005, 05:52 PM

Anytime I ever try this "disguise my big ace" play and turn an ace
I invariably get raised by a hand that reverse-dominates me.
The loosey-goosey SB has 2p/str8 here a large percentage of the
time; I would venture to say enough to make a CC here -EV.

-ZEN

ZenMusician · #19 10-07-2005, 05:55 PM

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You disguised your hand so they don't know where you stand, but as a result you don't know where you stand either. The variation for deception might be more effective against tighter, more aggressive, and/or fewer opponents.

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I agree, but not with hero being good enough times to CC

-ZEN

BigBrother · #20 10-07-2005, 06:57 PM

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I agree, but not with hero being good enough times to CC

-ZEN

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OK I can see that, but how much is it due to being unimproved on the river with the Deuce falling and both limpers still in the pot?

Enough that it's still worth it to call the turn c/r and chase the five dirty K and A outs?

Best case is invest 2BB to win 11.5 if you get there and are good. But if you don't think you are good even if you get there (str8 or set) are you saying fold to the turn c/r?

Sometimes it seems to me like a fine line between weak-tight and spewing.

--BB