Home ruling help.

[VinnyTheFish]

24 player tourn. Friendlyish game.

6 people left at 2 tables. Mid tournament.

UTG was shuffling at this tournament (for some reason).

Blinds are 1200-600 with 100 ante, we are using the RED deck.

UTG raises 5000. Everyone folds till the Big Blind. This entire time, UTG is shuffling the blue dbeck and shuffles his two RED cards into the “other” deck. He sees this and pulls them out. As he does this, he flips them up. Everyone sees t [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

The Big Blind is watching and does not look at his cards yet.

UTG says, “hand dead, take back all bets.”

Which is only the 6 antes, his 5K, the SB and the BB.

The table wants the hand mucked (since they were exposed) and all chips go to the BB, who has yet to look at his cards.

We call over the host who agrees that all T$ goes to the BB, but the BB ONLY 1200 from the raise. The 3800 (from the raise) goes back to UTG and everyone is happy. Everyone agrees. This was a very friendly game.

What is the correct ruling?

[TenPercenter]

I dont think the hand was dead. It's UTG's bad luck that his cards were exposed, but at that point it was still a $5k raise to BB. BB had the option to call, fold, or raise the $5k.

Ten

[italianstang]

I dont think the hand was dead either. And if the hand was dead for some reason, I would have just had the entire hand run back and re-dealt, the BB would not have won anything.

[Richard Tanner]

There are alot of ways to mess this up. You didn't do anything to life-threatening. That said the most important thing is the line:

"The 3800 (from the raise) goes back to UTG and everyone is happy. Everyone agrees. This was a very friendly game."

With that in mind, good call.

Cody

[kodonnell]

According to Roberts Rules of Poker, if a player exposes their own card (or cards), they still play. The rule is under the irregularities section under number 12:

"Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card."

[VinnyTheFish]

That seems to be a ruling beforfe action. Action had taken place. The carsd were seen and acted upon.


Thanks. Is the rule different for after looking?

[kodonnell]

This also is the ruling after the deal. If a player exposes their own card(s), the card(s) still play. There is also another section in Roberts Rules which eludes to that a bit which is the "show one, show all" rule. If a player exposes a card to another player still in the hand, the card must be shown to everyone. There is no mention of the hand being dead.

==== From Roberts Rules ====
6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players.

[Lottery Larry]

"UTG says, “hand dead, CORRECT " take back all bets.” NOPE

I might let the UTG player continue to play the hand, since it's only two of them and it's preflop.

[LetsRock]

Wow! What a mess. We use 2 decks and this kind of thing has never happened and I hope it doesn't.

My ruling on this would be:

If there has been no action on the hand (no one called UTG's preflop raise), then I would return bets and redeal the hand. My reasoning for this is that UTG has absolutely no motivation for purposely "accidently" screwing his hand up - as far as he knew BB would fold and he'd take the pot down. It would likely be an honest mistake that doesn't cause any problems. He's the only one that would be punished by the error (he had cards that were good enough to raise with and now he gets 2 fresh cards).

If there had been action (someone called) on the hand, his hand would be dead and the pot would be delivered to the caller or contested amongst remaining players. You simply cannot allow somone to "kill" their own hand when it's convenient and allow him to "undo" his big bet. Even if it was an honest mistake (and I believe it was), the shuffler doesn't have any differrent rights than the rest of the table (except for a couple of extra seconds to act on his hand).

[crockett]

I don't know if this is the correct way but here is the way I do it my tournaments and I've played in others that do it the same way.

If a card is exposed before ANY betting is made (not counting the blinds) then a misdeal is declared and the deck is reshuffled and redealt. No harm, no foul. We've had some complain "Man, I had AK blah, blah..." We just tell them to not look at your cards until the first bet is made (a check counts as a bet), if it makes you feel any better.

If a bet has been made and a card is exposed irregardless of where it came from; deck, hole card, burn card or muck. It is immediately placed face-up on the table for all to see and the hand continues as normal. If the card can someway be used as a burn card (i.e. it didn't come from someone's hole card or the muck) then it will be used as the "next" burn card if required. For example, occasionally a dealer will forget to burn and expose what should have been the burn card. That card remains face-up and acts as the burn card. Also, if even one single player (whether their cards are live or not) sees an accidently exposed card then it is exposed for all to see. We think this avoids arguements and we go on the honor system on wether or not a player saw the card.

So, in your example we would rule that both cards remain face-up and the hand continues completely as normal. After the hand we would remind him of why card protectors are used and we would jokingly hand him a "pink" chip that he could keep until he came up with his own.