MMMMMMM and others US foreign policy defenders - ethics?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Ok, fair enough MMMMMMM, I see you are conscious about it, it is the deniers and the ignorants that makes me scared.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Yes, learn to live with it! No limits! Full power to the rulers! Accept Hitler's Holocaust since he perceived Jews as a threat to society! Accept Stalin't gulag since it was necessary to preserve communism!

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You really are a butthead, aren't you?

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No, I am pointing out to you the extreme consequence of not drawing a absolute limit.

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Yes, learn to live with it! No limits! Full power to the rulers! Accept Hitler's Holocaust since he perceived Jews as a threat to society! Accept Stalin't gulag since it was necessary to preserve communism!

[/ QUOTE ]

You really are a butthead, aren't you?

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No, I am pointing out to you the extreme consequence of not drawing a absolute limit.

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That's why cultures and societes makes some absolute standards, to not allow the rulers to simply justify their actions with "it was necessary".


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You really are a butthead, aren't you?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, learn to live with it! No limits! Full power to the rulers! Accept Hitler's Holocaust since he perceived Jews as a threat to society! Accept Stalin't gulag since it was necessary to preserve communism!

[/ QUOTE ]

You really are a butthead, aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am pointing out to you the extreme consequence of not drawing a absolute limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

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That's why cultures and societes makes some absolute standards, to not allow the rulers to simply justify their actions with "it was necessary".


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You really are a butthead, aren't you?

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That's the kind of argument people usually use when they are out of words, meaning they have no sensible counterarguments. I know I am touching a sensitive spot, but it is a spot that is necessary to touch a lot of times to solve these problems. No real peace in the Middle East and no real coordinated War on Terror is going to come until ordinary Americans and ordinary moslems put pressure on their leaders on these issues.

Arfinn, let's hear your plan for what we should do with the detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

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No real peace in the Middle East and no real coordinated War on Terror is going to come until ordinary Americans and ordinary moslems put pressure on their leaders on these issues.


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Lord love a duck! You've finally said something I can agree with.
Totally! Wholeheartedly!

Now, c'mon over heah 'n lemme hug ya! [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Arnfinn Madsen]

-Release those who are proven innocent. There have been prisoners there which is proven innocent but which have not been released since the US does not know where to send them. They did not dare to release them at Guantanamo since they were considered to have become a security risk due to the treatment they received. I think they deserve compensation and US citizenship if US cannot find any other place for them.

-Stop torture. Wake up, don't become like this you are fighting. Don't flush 300 years of struggle to establish a free, democratic society into the toilet due to a external threat.

-Continue the investigations, but establish juridical processes around it which can stand daylight. Now everything is in a shady light and not many except the American right-wing trust the processes. More open processes could lead to more consciousness about the atrocities some of these groups have comitted/planned and could lead to condemnation from the majority of moslems. In addition, more openness could lead to more information being made available to the investigators.

If these steps were taken, it could be the beginning of making a real functioning anti-terrorism Interpol. Norwegian officers said in a documentary that the communication between different foreign security services operating in Iraq is so bad that they sent their own security officers.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I realize that it is necessary to have some of this guys in custody awaiting investigation.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Hugs [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[ACPlayer]

The problem with most of those who advocate a military response is not that they dont acknowledge that we made mistakes. THe problem is that they are unwilling see to the perspective of the other created by those mistakes and this is compounded by their inability to reason that we can fix some of these mistakes with real foreign policy adjustments.

6M's responses are classic in this direction: sure we made mistakes, those are past, now the mullahs are angry at us so threaten them and blow them apart before they take action. That is lets move in all our chips.

Failing to realize that this a losing proposition for us in the long term (a preflop movein strategy is not the right play for expert players, but is the right strategy for those in the red zone -- as the Islamic world is presently) is the issue. We need to work towards a view that the play of the hand must be taken further than simply a move-in mechanism -- something average poker players dont understand and are not able to cope with.

We need to become better thinkers and doers for the long run as all good poker players do.

[MMMMMM]

ACPlayer, the problem is far more than that "the mullahs are angry at us." The mullahs also wish to destroy Israel, who has never laid a hand on them; and they intend to rule the entire Middle East with their form of fanatical theocracy, if only they can somehow manage to accomplish it.

We need to tell them to cut the BS, and we need to carry a big stick and be ready to use it. And if they persist in their plans of acquiring nuclear wepons, we need to destroy all their facilities.

The problem ISN'T primarily what we have done in the past. The problem is the mullahs themselves, and their warped beliefs and intentions, and their actions towards implementations of their visions of pan-Middle-Eastern theocracy (to be led by them, of course). The problem is that they hate all infidels. The problem is that they are ideologically living in the 7th century--and that they are trying to forcibly impose 7th century values on the 21st century.

Western influence in the Middle East during the 1900s in some ways may have exacerbated the problems, but it is not the root cause of the problems. The root cause is the fanatics' hatred of non-Muslims, and their utterly totalitarian world views. And sadly it is those very views which have fostered political systems with stagnant economies and little hope of improvement, until they as a society someday begin embracing some Enlightenment type of thinking.