Racist or not?...you make the call.

[LittleOldLady]

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So, do you think that naturalization as an American citizen or conversion to Catholicism or being a Yoruba is inane? If not, why apply the term to Jews?


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This is where I see that you are not even remotely objective on this topic.

Conversion to a religion and specification of race are utterly and absolutely different things which require no further conversation.

You seem to have done an awful lot of research on this topic, and seem to feel very strongly about your knowledge on the subject.

I hope that your inference that my "inability to undersatand" your points is "anti-semitic" is merely a product of your truly sincere beliefs on this topic.

Otherwise, I can only assume that your clearly disingenuous incredulity at my point that converting to a religion and specifying oneself as belonging to a race are utterly different things is the product of some form of insanity.

And I do not wish insanity upon anyone, even those with whom I disagree.

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Who said anything about insanity or wishing it on any one? I was quoting your use of the word inane. And now you claim that I am insane for disingenuously arguing something I never argued.

I have never said that Jews represent a 'race'. In fact, I said entirely the opposite. I myself check 'white' when I have to indicate race. There is no box to tick for Jew, nor should there be. I did say that Jews constitute a gene pool, a breeding population (actually two gene pools), and that is a scientific fact. In fact, 'race' is a cultural concept, not a biological or genetic concept, and since I have been talking about genetics, the term 'race'is irrelevant.

If you are going to argue with me, kindly read what I wrote and do not put ridiculous things into my mouth.

Because Jews are endogamous and matrilineal, when a woman converts to Judaism, her children are Jews (no matter who their father is), and traditionally those Jewish children would marry other Jews and produce Jewish children. That is how conversion intersects with genetics, the children of converts introducing new genetic material into the Jewish gene pool.

If we do talk about race (and for the umpteenth time, no matter how you define it, Jews are NOT a race), new genetic material is introduced into "races" by intermarriage/interreproduction, producing individuals like Tiger Woods whose forebears include Asians, Native Americans, Africans, and Europeans. It is, as he has pointed out, ridiculous to pigeonhole him into the black 'race', ignoring all of the rest of his genetic heritage. This is one of many reasons why race as a cultural concept is not a very useful one.

In traditonal Judaism (that is before the most recent assimilating generations), intermarriage was generally preceded by conversion, especially when the non-Jewish partner was female, so that the children would be considered Jewish and would then marry endogamously as the overwhelming majority of Jews did until recently. In the case of pregnancies caused by the rape of a Jewish woman by a non-Jewish man, there would of course not be a conversion, but the children would be Jews and would in almost all cases marry another Jew. In the case of a Jewish woman marrying a non-Jewish man, there was little pressure from the wife's family for conversion, since the children would in any case be Jewish.

You are the one inferring that I have implied that you are anti-Semitic. I have implied no such thing. You have constructed a strawman when you argued that converting to a religion and specifying a race are utterly different things--when I at least never said that they were the same thing at all.

Once and for all, Jews are a "tribe" (to use the best-fitting term I can think of) linked together by genetics, history, culture (including language), and religion. It is, however, not necessary to believe in God or to practice the religious rituals to be a Jew, since membership in the "tribe" is conferred by the mere fact of birth to a Jewish woman. It is possible to be "adopted" by the "tribe," and that is done through conversion which is a religious process and does imply willingness to practice the Jewish religion, something that is not required of those who are Jews by birth. This can be compared to the naturalization process by which people become US citizens. Candidates for naturalization have to pass certain tests about American history and government before they are naturalized, while native-born US citizens can be complete ignoramuses--and often are. Jews as a group--like any other group--decide who is a member and who is not.

I am not insane, and I do know what I am talking about, and you might want to brush up on your reading and writing skills.

[andyfox]

"Do you mean that maybe young Jews think it's OK (I think it's unlikely), or that young non-Jews think it's OK, because it's just a phrase and they don't intend to be offensive"

Maybe both. I'm not sure, though, that they don't intend it to be offensive. I think it may be part of the coarsening of language in general, where ugly words or phrases are not considered as such, especially by younger people.

[Rushmore]

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Rushmore, what part of social constructionism don't you get?

Races are materially "real," how can they be anything more (or less) than a reflection of socially sanctioned knowledges? Including, god-forbid, self-identification or conversion?

The fact that you think Warik is "on point," shows how utterly clueless you are on this subject. That doesn't make you unique, but it does make you a moron.

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This is a first.

Ok, I never said that Warik was "on point." I merely responded when the kneejerk response to his position was seemingly without any merit whatsoever.

I can see how passionate you are on the subject, though, and have learned through the years that an objective discussion with a very passionate person is generally not readily available.

I will close my end of the discussion, though, by pointing out that it IS disingenuous for those with an agenda to feign incredulity at what is clearly a valid point (i.e. that scientific designation cannot ever be left to clearly subjective criterion).

That is all.

Moron, signing off.

[DoomSlice]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jew
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism

If you're not discriminating against Jewish people when you use it, how is it racism?