Blumpkin Told Me To Post This 75 Hand - Enormous Pot

[blumpkin22]

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I'd like to hear the argument for check-raising no matter what.Could you explain please?

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Well, it's pretty clear we're up against rolled up jacks and split aces. Additionally they both have straight possibilities. However, it is unlikely Hero is going to get raised even if villain B makes jacks full. As previous posters mentioned, villain B would probably call and go for the overcall from villain A rather than risk being 3-bet by a better full house. And villain A is only going to raise if he makes the miracle aces full.

So initially it seems like bet no matter what, and 3-bet if you fill if villain B raises (what if villain B calls, and then villain A raises?).

The idea behind the checkraise is that villain B will bet trip jacks if checked to. Originally I thought this would be the case because after the dead queen and the river check, he might not give Jeff credit for trip queens anymore. I no longer believe this, though. He might think you have trip queens and are scared that he filled up, or that either of the players hit a straight. However, if he does bet trip jacks, villain A calls, and then Jeff raises, how can Jeff have any hand except for queens full? Jeff thought that he might be capable of laying down jacks full. I'm not convinced of this either, but this was the idea.

Essentially the river decision comes down to (a) will he raise jacks full, (b) will he bet trip jacks or a straight if checked to, and (c) will he ever fold anything better than trip queens to a checkraise. If (b) were true I would say the best play is to bet with just trip queens and checkraise with queens full. However, I think the smart safe play is to bet either way.

[Jeffage]

Ok, I have to go into the shower, but one interesting thought I just had...if I bet the river blind, won't my opponents think it's likely I went into the river with just trips and not a full house? After all, if I had a boat, why would I want to scare either of my opponents - I want the call. If I bet blind, it may give the impression I don't want to miss a bet but I also don't want to get raised. This could prompt Jacks full or a straight to raise me on the river. Just a thought...I haven't really thought it through yet though.

Jeff

[BeerMoney]

Mike, you don't know how to spell straight either.

[jon_1van]

I hate the work "argument" (spelling?)

[MRBAA]

The only really interesting street here is the river, imho, although I'm sure you found the Q on fourth pretty interesting at the time. Having just gone through a 100BB downswing followed by a 200BB heater, I'm sure the guy with rolled jacks was loving that Q on fourth. When you are running bad it seems like stuff like that just keeps happening. When you're running good, of course, no one makes anything, you fill on fifth and they call you to the river. Anyway, my play on the river in these games is to bet when I either can't call a raise or when I can. Here, I think your trip Qs are going to be beat if you're raised, but the pot is too big to fold. So I probably just check it unimproved and bet if I fill. It's close though, since the guy with the jacks is likely to just call if he fills and if he doesn't (which is more likely) so you're getting an edge on that bet. But the other guy might raise with the str8 if he rivers it or hits a full.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i haven't read the responses yet but my gut reaction was to bet the river. they gotta be thinking you're rolled up or something so its gonna be hard for a straight to raise you on the river while lots of hands that would make crying calls against you that you beat would not bet themselves.

[Jeffage]

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*As an interesting sidenote I just was reading "The art of spelling", by Marilyn Vos Savant. This is the woman who writes for Parade magazine and to my knowledge still holds the record for the highest IQ ever at 223. I found it pretty cool how the book opened up with a story about a man who got "villian" tattooed on his arm. Later on a friend pointed out that the word villian was spelled villain. This made me laugh because I spell this word incorrectly every single day on here along with every other 2+2er who spells villain "villian". But Jeff.......shame on you, dont you write for a living? At least I have an excuse in that my degree is in business. How have we all been spelling this word wrong for so long? Not that I give a shiit, I just think its amusing.


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Get a job Sir. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Jeffage]

I wussed out and checked the river when I didn't hit a full house. I was getting beat up, but that's really not an excuse for weak river play here. The guy with the Jack bet, the other guy folded and I paid off just in time to look at a rivered jacks full. He did indeed start rolled up. I wonder if he would have raised the river had I bet - would have been interesting.

As for the checkraise idea, I admit it's a little out there. But Blumpkin explained my thoughts about it very well - it actually might work better if I checked blind here and then raised when it came back to me no matter what. With that much money in the pot, it may appear that I must have a full house to make this raise bc I want callers. So it's POSSIBLE though not hugely likely that villian might lay jacks full down. This is a pretty big gamble but it would only have to work like 9 or 10 % of the time to be worth it. Not to mention, some of the time I will river a boat of course. As Ethan said, betting is the safe, standard play.

If you have it near you, check out SCSFAP's advice on river play - I personally don't (and I don't think I'm alone here) do much of what they advocate. That is, my river play is very straightforward and I don't remember the last time I checkraised the river on a bluff or what I figured to be the worse hand (in stud - this comes up a bit more in hold em). Just an idea and something to think about. More comments welcome.

Jeff

[BeerMoney]

Nice post.

[MRBAA]

I like the c/r river bluff much better when you have something like a big pair that didn't improve but you've bet every street and the other guy is likely value betting with two pair. If you c/r it will appear you have made at least a bigger two pair, and probably that you had two pair and have filled. It's not entirely logical, but I think it's more likely an opponent will lay down two pair than a full house. I doubt I'd EVER lay down jacks full if you c/r in this hand, even though I'd be "sure" I was beat.