A Stud Paradox: From Carlos' Home Game

[Jeffage]

In a stud8 hand, this situation came up:

I had (Q,J) J. John I and his friend have these approximate boards (I had raised on 3rd).


(x,x) 35s

(x,x) 24

I checked and folded to a bet and a call.

Anyway, I was talking to Carlos about this and he said it was a good fold, but what would I do if it was high only.

"I'd bet," I said as I drank another Grolsch.

He said this was wrong because if someone has a 4-flush they're a favorite and I might as well wait to see what comes on 5th. But I don't think they have to have a 4-flush or whatever here. Though I guess a bet might go in anyway and if it doesn't, pot is smaller so they are getting worse odds calling my 5th bet. Just an interesting spot.

What do you think of check-folding this in stud8? What about check-call in stud high (a play I'd almost never make)?

Thanks,
Jeff

[beta1607]

In stud8 I would probably fold this hand on 3rd. It has zero low potential and there are so many things that can happen to kill your chance of winning the high.

In stud high I see the argument for both betting and checking. Your hand is very vunerable and you dont want to give free cards, but at the same time I doubt you have ~33% equity in the pot on 4th but if both opponents brick you can pop it on 5th when your equity has improved and you can charge the draws a full bet. I don't think either play here could be wrong by much.

[Jeffage]

[ QUOTE ]

In stud8 I would probably fold this hand on 3rd. It has zero low potential and there are so many things that can happen to kill your chance of winning the high.

[/ QUOTE ]

We were playing 4-handed.

Jeff

[Andy B]

Even four-handed, I think you have to check and fold when there's a bet and a call. You have very little chance to scoop, your high hand isn't that strong, and the pot is small. If you continue, you will either win the minimum or lose the maximum.

In high-only, your big pair is a dog to a flush draw if his hand is reasonably live, but only if that's what he has. Now a good player calling a full bet from a face card when he's got a small card in the door is very likely to have started with a three-flush, but it's not like he has to have it. The money's going in anyway, so I say bet it yourself.

[Roland]

I often check there, but usually only if the (possible) 4-flush is last to act. Then I often check-raise right away (if villain is a bit on the loose-aggressive side and will auto-bet many weaker hands there too or if a) the pot is already quite big and b) I can count on the 3rd guy to fold lots of times for two bets) or just call and then bet out / go for the check-raise on 5th (again depending on opponents, pot size, boards, etc.).
Granted, just betting out can never be too wrong in a 3-way pot (whereas in a real multi-way pot it’s pretty bad… I posted a hand ages ago where I made that mistake; I’ll try to find it). But I feel that, ironically, checking in those spots gives me more control (and hopefully confuses the opposition).

[jon_1van]

I don't agree with the check/call in stud hi unless the unsuited player caught an overcard.

So if its something like
4s 5s
6c Ad
to your QJJ3

I could see check/calling there.

[vintage_sara]

check call is almost my standard play here. Adds deception to your hand as well. See if fifth comes off clean. Stud-hi thoughts.

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
check call is almost my standard play here. Adds deception to your hand as well. See if fifth comes off clean. Stud-hi thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

On 5th you catch 2-pair and flush guy gets 3rd flush card. You??/

[fnord_too]

Well, assuming you didn't catch a J on fourth, I think check folding is right there. If you caught a Q, I don't know.

In stud high, I like probably bet on fourth, but I think I like checking if it will likely be checked through. Not sure though, it really depends on the opposition. (I use a lot of pot size controlling plays in tripple draw to induce mistakes of calling on the third betting round if I know someone is prone to making bad calls there, if they are not, I will push my slight edges on the second betting round. I think this is similar to your high only choices here, except you are probably looking for an incorrect fold if you delay a round. My concern is, though, that if villain has something like (TT)35 and a three flush, I'm not very keen on giving a free card there. Even if we are behind to a 4 straight flush, with three players in we probably have enough equity to bet in high only: either the third player calls, which makes our bet profitable, or folds, which makes our bet even more profitable. Of course that assumes we play correctly later in the hand and don't get tied in with a money dog because the pot has gotten bloated.)

[jon_1van]

No seriously, you check 4th, get a 2 pair on 5th at the same time the suited guy gets a 3rd suited card. (stud hi)

Now whats your plan