I win, now what?

[brettbrettr]

Willy-Will,

I really don't think that betting to clean up outs is a good reason to bet on this board. Take a look at it again.

Brett

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with entity that this flop is a pretty easy check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with you, Entity, Bobbyi and BrettBrett. I like that. I'm probably going to get something straightened out here.

At any rate, this is post that made me start betting more flops. Granted, there are plenty of differences here, but I think the concepts can apply here. I'll take anyone folding that I can get.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, this is post that made me start betting more flops

[/ QUOTE ]

These are two completely different flops.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, this is post that made me start betting more flops

[/ QUOTE ]

These are two completely different flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that. This bet cannot be THAT bad. 2 overs, and 2 backdoors. I don't consider it to be an EASY check.

However, I did just talk to chief444, who made that post, and he said he checks it. I said "no you don't". He said "Yes I do". And I cried a little.

So....

Maybe this is closer to a check than a bet, and we're more likely to get raised since we were the PFR and people are expecting it.

He also wanted to wait for the river to raise since many will not be folding a 5 outer anyway.

If he says anything else, what he had for lunch or whatever, I'll be sure to convey it.

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
This bet cannot be THAT bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its *THAT* bad. I just don't think its that good is all.

[BWebb]

I think what is being lost is that I prefaced my response with "if he is the type to fold a 10 to a raise." If he's going to call down with a 10, this is a clear raise. There wasn't a read given in the original post, so my response was more to give a different line that was strictly player dependent.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the turn. I'm not sure why you bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

With overcards, a three-flush, and a good three-straight, in a board that is likely to have missed the majority of opponents (note the paired 4s), Q has a fair amount of equity here. In what has become a big pot, betting makes sense in order to clear up possible overcard outs and allow Q to take a free river card a lot of the time, and with 5-6-ish outs here probably on average we have enough equity in a five-way pot so that a bet is not going to be hugely bad in most situations. Even in situations where we get check-raised and the pot ends up heads-up, that often means we are heads-up in position with 9 pure outs, which is really not that bad a spot to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will,

I'm starting to think you may autobet too many flops. Between this and the JTc flop, especially. I think this is a flop check as there are no outs to be cleaned.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Rob, Brett, Bobby,

I think you guys are right. I autobet too many flops. I am going to stop doing that.

I think that this might well be a pretty valuable realization for me. Thanks for the assistance.

-Will(y)

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, this is post that made me start betting more flops.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this hand is similar to that one. Differences include:
1) You have a stronger draw there. A gutshot to the nuts with two overcards and a backdoor flush draw is a strong draw. Here, you just have overcards and backdoors.

2) The likely way it will play out if you bet is very different. In the other hand, the preflop raiser had already checked as had the players acting after him. The chance that one of these people is check-raising is very small. You could get check-raised by BB, but that is just one guy to worry about. If you bet, it is likely you will get called in several spots (given the big pot and the coordinated board) and checked to again on the turn, which is a great outcome for your hand. In this hand, everyone checked to you as the preflop raiser on the button. It's much more likely that someone is sandbagging. Given the board, anyone with a ten is probably check-raising and you often get raised by a pocket pair like 88. This covers a lot of popular limping hands. If you're behind, you don't benefit from having a guy with 76s fold here, which he will. It's likely that your bet results in you paying two bets to see the turn against one opponent, which is a terrible outcome when you could have checked and seen it for free.

You have position. Use it. One of the reasons you want to act last is that you can take a free card here and screw over whoever was sandbagging. I love playing with people who squander their positional advantage by betting every time the field checks to them.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, this is post that made me start betting more flops.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this hand is similar to that one. Differences include:
1) You have a stronger draw there. A gutshot to the nuts with two overcards and a backdoor flush draw is a strong draw. Here, you just have overcards and backdoors.

2) The likely way it will play out if you bet is very different. In the other hand, the preflop raiser had already checked as had the players acting after him. The chance that one of these people is check-raising is very small. You could get check-raised by BB, but that is just one guy to worry about. If you bet, it is likely you will get called in several spots (given the big pot and the coordinated board) and checked to again on the turn, which is a great outcome for your hand. In this hand, everyone checked to you as the preflop raiser on the button. It's much more likely that someone is sandbagging. Given the board, anyone with a ten is probably check-raising and you often get raised by a pocket pair like 88. This covers a lot of popular limping hands. If you're behind, you don't benefit from having a guy with 76s fold here, which he will. It's likely that your bet results in you paying two bets to see the turn against one opponent, which is a terrible outcome when you could have checked and seen it for free.

You have position. Use it. One of the reasons you want to act last is that you can take a free card here and screw over whoever was sandbagging. I love playing with people who squander their positional advantage by betting every time the field checks to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post rules. Thanks Bobby.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Here, you just have overcards and backdoors.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a paired board, no less.

Those two hands are completely different. I don't think we're talking a huge difference in EV here, but given how often this comes up when you start making these SC-type raises in LP and you miss a flop where your FE isn't superduper and your equity itself isn't great.

Rob