A variation of Pascal's Wager-Question for Non Believers

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Let me ask you something. If a god-hating, baby-killing atheist can get into heaven for ten seconds of self-interested, passive participation, earning the same reward that a believer does for a lifetime of faith and good works, doesn't that kind of sour the product the Church is peddling?

I ask this not to be a smartass but because from a young age this is the source of my skepticism. If all one has to do to earn favor with God is repent, in a self-interested and desperate manner, facing mortal terror and dismemberment, what motivation is there to do good? And how do we reconcile this obvious loophole with an all-knowing, all-powerful God?

NT

[David Sklansky]

"Let me ask you something. If a god-hating, baby-killing atheist can get into heaven for ten seconds of self-interested, passive participation, earning the same reward that a believer does for a lifetime of faith and good works, doesn't that kind of sour the product the Church is peddling?"

No. Here's the real reason why:

Christians are more than happy to accept the fact that very bad people can be saved through belief and extremely good people can be doomed through non belief because 98% of them are less than extremely good. If they are merely pretty good, it,behooves them to hope that God considers everyone, including the extremely good, unworthy of saving except though his grace.

In other words a pretty good person, knowing that there are a few extremely good people out there that he can't compete with, is better off saying that even the extremely good person is not perfect and not satisfying to God. And if he substitutes faith as the important criteria for God, he becomes equal with the extremely good person. The fact that he no longer has an advantage over the not good person in this scheme is a tradeoff well worth it.

[Scotch78]

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all of whom are rational

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Good luck proving this. Oh, crap, your argument fails if you can't.

Scott

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This is pretty much what I was trying to get at David. Discussing rational choice theory with a religious person is sort of like discussing sex with a nun. They can guess at what it might be like, but they haven't got any practice, so it just feels unnatural and speculative.


NT

I would not kneel and would probably shout obscenities at the speaker. Your question is lame. Why don't you, when faced with mortal danger, not cry out "Jesus, Alah, Buddha, Save Me!"?

[bluesbassman]

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Here's my question for the non-believers: Each soldier in that formation knelt down to receive General Absolution. If in that formation, would you have knelt to accept General Absolution as well? What about a situation where death is almost certain, like an airplane about to crash?

It seems to me that even for a committed atheist, this is entirely a "spiritual freeroll" with no downside and only a very large upside. I'm curious about the rationale for those who wouldn't take it.

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I'm an atheist, and I wouldn't take it. The reasons, briefly, are as follows:

1. I'm an atheist as a natural consequence of being rational (at least in that respect), which I consider to be a virtue. I would want to spend the last moments of my life acting consistent with those values.

2. If the personal "god" of Christianity exists as interpreted by most Christians, he is profoundly evil. Thus, the only thing I'd have to say to him would be: "Thanks for putting me and countless others in this position, you evil rat bastard."

3. If "god" is actually good, he will more likely reward me if I remain rational, i.e. reason #1.

Hence, my best "wager" would be not to accept absolution. Any "god" who would punish me for this can't be trusted anyway.

Now bigdaddydvo,

You have had a few worthy answers (and probably unexpected), are you going to sit there, or are you going to make an answer/comment? Maybe you will continue with a satisfied smuggness that knows he is right because he is on the side of might!

Looking forward to some meaningful comments from you.

[Trantor]

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This past weekend I visited the University of Notre Dame on the occasion of the Notre Dame-Navy game. One of the pregame celebrations was in memory of Father William Corby. Father Corby was a priest who was a Civil War Chaplain. He is well known among Civil War enthusiests for granting General Absolution to his unit in the Union prior to Gettysburg. The account follows:

"The Rite of Absolution

Gettysburg NMP
Another interesting monument near this location is that to Father William Corby, chaplain of the famous "Irish Brigade". On the afternoon of July 2, just prior to the brigade's advance to the Wheatfield, Father Corby stood upon a large boulder and granted general absolution to the catholic members of the brigade. It was a most stirring moment as the chaplain raised his voice above the din of battle while over 300 Union soldiers who were about to face death knelt before him. Within the hour, the brigade was in the thick of the battle. To commemorate this unique event, a statue of Father Corby was erected upon the exact boulder where he stood that afternoon, and was dedicated on October 29, 1910."

FYI, General Absolution is a tool catholic priests use to forgive the sins of people in emergency situations where their lives are in grave danger (e.g. a civil war battle). The Church requires that those who receive GA and survive the emergency situation must confess their sins to a priest at first opportunity to make the Absolution valid. If a person dies, then GA provides him/her the graces necessary to enter Heaven immediately.

This is a situation where someone has a high probability of dying. Here's my question for the non-believers: Each soldier in that formation knelt down to receive General Absolution. If in that formation, would you have knelt to accept General Absolution as well? What about a situation where death is almost certain, like an airplane about to crash?

It seems to me that even for a committed atheist, this is entirely a "spiritual freeroll" with no downside and only a very large upside. I'm curious about the rationale for those who wouldn't take it.

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An operation to remove my appendix about 5 years ago (age 45 and so an atheist of some 4 decades) has a finite chance of death and odds which do not alter the premis of your question even though obviously far from near-certain death. It never even crossed my mind to say a prayer or make any vows before going under.

[bocablkr]

There is an expression that there are no atheists in a foxhole. That is FALSE. Atheists do not change their mind as they face death.

I was in a bad accident as a teenager and was drifting in an out of consciousness. I thought I was dying. Never, not even for a nanosecond, did I think about god or anything like that. I think theist find this hard to believe.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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Now bigdaddydvo,

You have had a few worthy answers (and probably unexpected), are you going to sit there, or are you going to make an answer/comment? Maybe you will continue with a satisfied smuggness that knows he is right because he is on the side of might!

Looking forward to some meaningful comments from you.

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Absolutely. This is the response I deemed most insightful:

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I'm an atheist, and I wouldn't take it. The reasons, briefly, are as follows:

1. I'm an atheist as a natural consequence of being rational (at least in that respect), which I consider to be a virtue. I would want to spend the last moments of my life acting consistent with those values.

2. If the personal "god" of Christianity exists as interpreted by most Christians, he is profoundly evil. Thus, the only thing I'd have to say to him would be: "Thanks for putting me and countless others in this position, you evil rat bastard."

3. If "god" is actually good, he will more likely reward me if I remain rational, i.e. reason #1.

Hence, my best "wager" would be not to accept absolution. Any "god" who would punish me for this can't be trusted anyway.


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Point #1: This is probably the best response I've seen. Remaining true to your beliefs is, in its own way, a virtue. Outside of this, I fail to see a positive consequence for steadfastly maintaining atheism to death.

Point #2: This is certainly a preposterous statement. Your thoughts seem to be: "Dear God. You do not exist. But if you exist in the Christian sense, you are evil." Since all Christian thought and theory fall are derived from the principle teaching of "Love God with your whole heart, mind, body, and soul; and Love your neighbor as yourself." This is truly the antithesis of evil. Nonetheless, I'm curious about what inspires these feelings in you, and would be happy to address any grievances you feel towards the Christian God.

Point #3: Though there is marginal benefit to the virtue I acknowledge in #1, I cannot see how God would value your perceived rationality over belief.