New hands... Should I defend from BB?

[King_J]

Lets imagine we play shorthanded four handed.
We are better then all of them, but they´re not superfish. But we make money playing against them. We play a little bit better postflop, but there is not a huge difference.

Cutoff knows that he should play more aggressive shorthanded and he raises quite frequently.

You are in the BB and cutoff open raises (he is UTG too)
all fold to you.

do you defend with:
A. Q9o
B. A2o
C J8o
D T9o
E 54s

These are just examples. I am having BIG problems from the big blind. If you have any ideas regarding starting hands, plz comment me. I would love to get help.

(I have read HPFAP)

[BookOfIcculus]

All of these hands are dependent on what you know about the CO. If cutoff raises everyhand, then you can call more. But you still need to hit a flop in order to see the turn with all of these hands. A and D are the hands I would defend better than 50% of the time. BCE I would defend around 30% of the time. I think docs reply to the previous hands post was some of the best advice you can have for playing short handed. Let me see if I can come up with a list of the hands I would defend 100% of the time, and hands i would 3 bet.

Defend 100% and sometimes 3 bet.
any pocket pair
any Axs or where x is 8 or better
any 2 face cards.
x9 suited where x is 10 or better

3-bet 100%
Any 2 face cards suited
77 or better pp
Ax suited or better where x J or better
AQo AKo.

Do you agree with these hands?

[phish]

You should not be playing four-handed if you're not willing to defend the big blind with these hands if all others fold except for the raiser.

[tewall]

How frequently is "quite frequently"? What do the other players do? (how many do you expect in the pot?)

Jason Pohl wrote some interesting columns about a similar sort of thing. On poker pages I think.

My experience with short-handed play has been better to error on the side of tightness. That is, even though one needs to loosen up to prevent the theivery described in HEFAP from taking place, the problem with playing too loose is you can get sucked into a contest you can't get out of. Having decent hands to start with allows you to play the hands you do play aggressively. Jason outlines a tight but aggressive strategy, and I think that's the right approach. (Hmmm tight/aggressive ... seems like I've read about that somewhere)

[max_pot]

first, find a new table. there's gotta be a softer one. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] i know that's kind of a wise-ass answer, but if the cutoff is smart enough to put your blind to the test with regularity, why fight for money? if you're playing online you can easily avoid this scenario. it forces you to make too many close decisions.

anyhow, to the actual question:

assuming i had just sat down and this started happening to me... off the top of my head i'd say

do you defend with:

A. Q9o

fold 30% / call 55% / raise 15%
two big cards that can pair and stand up heads up. q nice protection from overs, and 9's hold up more often than not short, let alone heads up. q is good kicker for 9 as other 9x hands more commonly connectors [or a, of course]. str8 potential nice as well.

B. A2o

fold 40% / call 40% / raise 20%

raise more fold more. don't like this as calling hand. take the lead or get out. better hand than q9? yes, by a little, but it traps you when you pair and has less deceptive value. only makes low end of wheel.

C J8o

f40%/c50%/r10%

pretty much like q9o-lite.

D T9o

f30% / c60% / raise 10%

lower cards so less raise than q9 even tho both fare similarly agianst a-rag. str8 potential is nice but also trap since heads up might not generate best odds for draw on turn. the pairs are good but the kickers not so, and two pair always makes possible str8 draw.


E 54s

f85% / c 10% / r 5%

this hand is terrible heads up. the flush potential adds little since the kicker is so bad, the str8 is ok but hard to disguise and few make decent 2nd best hand when you make [except maybe pair ace or aces up if you make wheel]. call and raise only for purposes of shakin things up.

i'm no theorist. that's my gut reaction.

max_pot

[stripsqueez]

i am impressed with what i think is the quality of answers to this thread - i expected dogmatic yes/no responses when the right answer is, as it often is "it depends"

i was playing 10/20 5 max last night with an aggressive good player on the button when i was the BB - i would guess he was raising 50% of the time it was folded to him on the button - i folded 5-6 hands in a row because i was getting absolute crap and he seemed to start stealing more (as a good player would) - the next time it happened i had 92o but i simply couldnt let him continue to steal + he was no doubt becoming vulnerable to a bluff because the quality of his hands would of been decreasing, so i 3 bet - flop was K 2 2 (justice in my view) - capped on the flop and he thereafter called me down as i took a nice pot

i didnt "plan" to show him the 92o i had 3 bet with so unfortunately this hand didnt decrease his stealing much !

if you can sustain an argument that 3 betting in the BB with 92o is good play (which i dont wish to do) then i think you can get the answer to your question as well as understanding the nature of shorthanded play

[Copernicus]

All of the hands except E are marginally +EV all in against random hands vs 3 other players, as well as being +EV heads up. A and B are virtually the same as each other at about 57/43 heads up, and C and D the same at 53/47 heads up.

The question is, then, how much better than random (if any) does UTGs call need to be to raise? Since he raises quite frequently his hands may only be slightly better than random. The fact that the other 2 didnt call might also indicate some extra high card possibilities for his hand, since they should be calling with most As and Ks.

Thus defending with A and B looks right, while C and D are borderline, and depend more on how the hand might develop. You wont have drawing odds if you dont flop the straights, so there is no issue of getting sucked along there. That still leaves you vulnerable to overpairs/two pair/sets and same pair/better kicker if you hit one of your cards on the flop. UTG should come out betting whether he hits his flop or not, which means you will have no read on his hand from a bet. A check from him may be more of a danger sign than a bet unless the board is very scary.

I would only play C or D if you are willing to abandon it if you dont hit the straight, two pair, trips or top pair with a straight draw on the flop.

A and B are pretty easy to get away from if you dont hit and a little less vulnerable when you do and seem like clear calls.

[BreaKBeatZ]

I would defend all of these.