PLO8 quiz

[Wintermute]

Setup:


Heads Up $400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Both players tight/aggressive, good.

Seat 9: Player1 ( $400 )
Seat 10: Player2 ( $400 )

Player1 posts small blind [$2].
Player2 posts big blind [$4].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Player1 [ 5h Ad 2d Ac ]
Dealt to Player2 [ 4h Qs 3c 5c ]

Player1 raises [$10].
Player2 calls [$8].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 7c, 6s ]

Players get all-in on the flop. (Bet, raise, raise, push, call, or whatever. No checkraising went down.)

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Quiz:
-estimate who is ahead (try not to use 2dimes, then check for next part)
-who is mathematically correct in pushing once we know the cards
-who is correct in pushing given an assignment of range of hands, etc.
-would you play either hand differently
-would things change if one stack was short (say $600 vs. $200)

[got0uts]

Ok, quick estaimation.

-estimate who is ahead (try not to use 2dimes, then check for next part)

Any none club high cards and Ace scoop for player 1 [AA25], any low cards guarantees player1 nut low.

Gotta be player 1, how much I don't know, 2 to 1 may be.

-who is mathematically correct in pushing once we know the cards
Who else, only Wintermute or Ribbo had the rights to push.

-who is correct in pushing given an assignment of range of hands, etc.
etc, etc, etc.

-would you play either hand differently
On the flop, I would bet as hard as possible if I am P1. I would call/check-call if P2.

-would things change if one stack was short (say $600 vs. $200)

whose the SS ?

Edited:
I don't play HU if both players are equally good. It's the bad players with rich money that I am after.

[Mendacious]

a) Ok on the turn, the 345K hand has 10 probable scoop cards, and 12 cards which give him half. The AA25 hand has over cards 12 cards which scoop, and 12 cards which give him half. The river is too complicated for my little brain, but I give a slight edge to AA25 depending on the turn card.

b) does not make sense to me as a question. We know the odds, they don't. the player with the greater EV is MORE correct, but it is possible that they both are correct to push.

c) see above, I think the AA25 is more correct to push against a normal range of hands. I think it is more likely to scoop more often against the typical hand

d)I'd be more inclined to get all in with AA25, but clearly they both think the other guy is drawing, and in a sense, they are both correct. I might not push back with 345K so hard.

e)If I am the 345K and the big stack, I am even less likely to push back, as I don't think I have much fold equity.

[sasubpar]

-estimate who is ahead (try not to use 2dimes, then check for next part)
I think player two is ahead, but it's so close it's hardly even worth knowing. Most clubs give player two the lock high. The board would have to pair and throw out an ace or show runner runner K 6 or 7 for player 1 to make his boat. Player two is also open ended, and if any one of the straight cards falls, he locks the high since it would kill player 1's boat draw. If player 1 does catch his ace and thus a boat draw, very few cards can come on the river that won't give player two the lock low.

All that said, player 1 wins the high if both players go UI and wins the high most times when the turn improves his hand. He also has a strong hold on the low should a low card come, since only an A would screw him, and he already holds two of them. To me, it looks like they have about equal chances of splitting it up various ways, but player two has a very very slight edge in the scooping department.

-who is mathematically correct in pushing once we know the cards
Twodimes says player two has more EV, but as I suspected, his edge is miniscule. I think both are probably right in getting all in here. They each probably have some fold equity and relatively strong draws.

-who is correct in pushing given an assignment of range of hands, etc.
Not really sure. Player 1's raise could be a steal attempt, and player two's call could be some blind defense. I would put player one on at least two wheel cards, probably A2xx, A3xx, A4xx suited to the ace, or 23xx, and probably something highish like a ten. Player two probably has a mediocre hand from player 1's perspective, and a flop bet may be likely to take it down, which I would do on most flops, especially considering his hand.

-would you play either hand differently
I would fold player 2's hand preflop.

-would things change if one stack was short (say $600 vs. $200) If I am player 1 with the short stack, I play the same way, maybe mixing in a few calls preflop. If I am player 1 with the larger stack, I play the same. If I am player 2 with the larger stack, I fold preflop, likewise if I'm player 2 with the 200 stack. Even though I have all those wheel cards, there are not a whole lot of flops I'm going to like, especially when it's extremely likely I'm giong to see a flop bet from player 1 on most flops.

I also don't play PLO8, so it is entirely possible that I'm very wrong here, but I can't improve if I don't try I suppose.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]

I also don't play PLO8, so it is entirely possible that I'm very wrong here, but I can't improve if I don't try I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well I actually like your answers the best so far. I was player 1, and was surprised to scoop when the turn and river bricked out J and 9 of spades, respectively. When I saw his hand, I initially thought it was probably around a toss-up on the flop, with me having a slight edge (close, but as you mentioned he actually had the slight equity edge). However, my first reaction was that he had still misplayed the hand because he was fortunate to have an equity edge, or even correct equity odds to get committed on the flop. My reasoning is that his drawing hand only scoops when he catches the flush--any str he makes will put a low out there and it's reasonable to assign me a better low draw than he has given the action. Also, his flush is nowhere near iron-clad: if I have higher flush draw to go with a low draw and as little as any board pair, then his equity plummets. In addition, many of his str's will not be nut str's, and in the rare occasion where two of my sidecards stand to make a better str, it's crippling.

So from his perspective, after considering what range of hands the opponent might have, I think folding that flop is the best play. Or at the very least, call and see what the turn brings (this wasn't really an option for him because he actually was short, about 600 to 200, so he'd be close to committed with a call). But this kind of scenario is a big trap in short-handed games: playing a weak speculative hand, catching a flop that fits that hand very well given the range of flops you could get, and then shoving quickly, perhaps without considering the potential strength of your opponent's hand.

I also agree that his hand is pretty easily foldable preflop, but in a heads up match, three wheel cards can look pretty good.

Just thought the hand was interesting b/c I would find it hard to escape from his hand in his position, and probably wouldn't have learned anything from losing the pot if I were him, but after thinking about it more carefully I think a flop fold is his best play.

[DyessMan89]

Quiz:
-estimate who is ahead (try not to use 2dimes, then check for next part)

Player 2 has a ton of outs, I think this is a situation where it appears Player 1 has a huge advantage, but really doesnt. Id say Player one is a slight favorite, 55/45 ish

-who is mathematically correct in pushing once we know the cards

Um, the person who is more likley to win? Id give slight advantage to Player 1

-who is correct in pushing given an assignment of range of hands, etc.

Player 1

-would you play either hand differently

I would play the first hand hard and the second one I would get in cheap or not play at all. 2nd hand of cource is a pre-flop fold.

-would things change if one stack was short (say $600 vs. $200)

Fold Equity would decrease?

[sasubpar]

Yeah I forgot to comment on his flop play, mostly because I was too busy reminding myself to post that I would fold preflop.

Depending on the flop bet, with a 400 stack, I would think folding a good idea, but I think it would be really really really hard for him to do it given what he may see as some stealing attempts from player 1. If he has only 200, then any call pretty much ties him to the pot, he is probably better off just pushing the flop than flat calling and evaluating the turn.

He's got to know that his straight is extremely vulnerable, and that his flush cards blow, but he is heads up against what could be seen as a generic positional raise. If I just woke up on the flop and this hand was on my screen and I started with 400, I would probably fold if it was potted to me and pot a smaller bet, folding to a reraise. If I had started with 200, I would probably fold the flop regardless. You're not doing so well against a range of hands that seems reasonable and you don't have much of a stack to represent a better hand on the turn/river and have any FE, so folding seems better.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]

--------------------------------------------------------
Quiz:
-estimate who is ahead (try not to use 2dimes, then check for next part)
-who is mathematically correct in pushing once we know the cards
-who is correct in pushing given an assignment of range of hands, etc.
-would you play either hand differently
-would things change if one stack was short (say $600 vs. $200)

[/ QUOTE ]

1. They are dead even (haven't checked 2 dimes
2. both are
3. I'd raise as player2
4. yes, hand 2 gets weaker if cards miss, he wants to get it all in now, whereas hand 1 can get away if hand 2 hits. therefore, if its deep hand 1 has advantage as can put big pressure on blank turn and can get away if turn hits

-g

[kevstreet]

I know I am way over my head reading this post. I recently started playing very small O8 H/L ($11 SnGs to be exact) and don't have a clue which hand is stronger. At a quick glance it would appear HAND 1 is a clear favorite. I am a NL player, so I'm sure you're real thrilled when we have a question about your game. Anyway, I know O8 is much more concise with numbers which brings me to my question. Is this game learnable (to a high level) or do you need to be mathematically astute to begin with?

I did a search but really couldn't find what I was looking for. Try not to flame me; I like reading this forum and hope it will help me with my all-around poker game.

[Wintermute]

kev, it's definitely learnable, and I posted about this hand because it's a very close call to see who's ahead on the flop. The main point is that although it was very close, and the guy with the str & flush draws was slightly ahead, he may have misplayed it given that his hand doesn't stand up well against a range of hands, whereas the AA2 hand stands up against anything, and dominates some.