72s is marginal at best

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Preflop, it's a fold the first time around for sure. once it's raised, hero now is getting 7-1 to call with suited trash. I'd rather call this time around because at least now you have some flush draw value.

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Note that I'm also getting 7:1 on the first preflop call.

I still don't agree with calling that raise pre-flop even with those odds. If there were no raises, and you were on the button, would you limp in with this with the same odds? I wouldn't...

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Flop: He as 13 outs. I'd think about 3 betting, but probably just call since I have no overs.

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I mistakenly undervalued the flush outs because of Hero's high card being only a 7. On the same hand, I think you're overvaluing them for the same reason. Some others might have the same draw, but with a higher card.

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are you serious? Hero has about 15 outs here. Flush + double gutshot. Anyone that folds here doesn't understand counting outs.

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You're right, I missed the other gutshot with the 4. However, I still think you're giving too many outs to the flush. It's not the nut flush.

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I still don't agree with calling that raise pre-flop even with those odds. If there were no raises, and you were on the button, would you limp in with this with the same odds? I wouldn't...

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I actually think calling the raise preflop is the worst part of the hand. Usually I wouldn't fold after calling, but I think special circumstances exist in the small blind.

As for limping in the small blind, the reason you can open your standards a lot more is because it is much easier to recoup 0.25BB postflop than 0.5BB, even out of position.

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As for limping in the small blind, the reason you can open your standards a lot more is because it is much easier to recoup 0.25BB postflop than 0.5BB, even out of position.

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I said this in my first post:

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I understand calling in the SB the first time,

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Basically, I agree with your limp.

[Harv72b]

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it is much easier to recoup 0.25BB postflop than 0.5BB, even out of position.

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You have the ideal position postflop vs. the PFR. You can bet out the flop if you catch two pair or what have you, expecting him to raise, or check/raise with a stronger hand/draw. And you have to make up more than .25 BB in order to make a hand like 72s +EV, as the 7:1 pot odds you're getting on the initial completion aren't enough to justify playing it.

All that said, and understanding the fact that you are getting identical pot odds the second time around, calling the raise is mandatory. You should never (and I mean never) fold a hand preflop which you already VPIP'd with for 1 additional bet, not in a limit game. When a player raises behind you, especially the BB (which typically means a big PP, or at least AK), your implied odds go up significantly, which makes it worthwhile to see the flop.

You played the hand perfectly in my opinion. Don't listen to a couple of these weak tight players.

[zgall1]

I think it is a pretty bad move to just start assuming that other players are on a higher flush draw in a 1/2 game just because they are passively calling bets. Most of these players are bad and would be doing the same thing with any number of hands. I wouldn't start discounting flush outs until I was given a much better reason to do so.

Harv,

I think the rule of thumb you are quoting applies to situations in which you have already invested a full small bet. A +EV situation is defined as one where you will, on average, expect to earn more postflop than your original investment (I'm pretty sure this is the definition provided in SSHE, although someone should check this). Calling for half a bet is different than calling for a full bet, even though the current pot odds are the same. This is because the bet sizes postflop become relatively smaller to your investment.

There was a hand recently on here involving 55 on the button, that was faced with 3 bets cold preflop after 3 cold callers, basically giving the poster 5:1 immediate odds on his call. Typically, this is where most players would cut off calling for set value. The odds for flopping a set are about 7.5:1, meaning that the OP would have to make up an additional 2.5 small bets postflop to make up for this. This would be an easy call if it were for a single bet, as 1.25BB is not that hard to make up postflop against 4 loose players. But the situation was for THREE bets. This means the OP would have to make up 3.75BB postflop to make up for this. Although the immediate odds are the same, the implied odds are significantly different.

My point is that the implied odds for calling one small bet and then an additional small bet are identical; however, to call one small bet and pay twice that when it comes back to you is different. If calling for half a small bet in the SB is very marginal, then folding to a raise is mandatory.

EDIT: to include link.

[TheHip41]

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Preflop, it's a fold the first time around for sure. once it's raised, hero now is getting 7-1 to call with suited trash. I'd rather call this time around because at least now you have some flush draw value.

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Note that I'm also getting 7:1 on the first preflop call.

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Note that you have suited trash the first time around.

Note I said fold the first 'and' second time around.

I like the flop and turn, preflop is not good.

[TheHip41]

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Flop: He as 13 outs. I'd think about 3 betting, but probably just call since I have no overs.

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I mistakenly undervalued the flush outs because of Hero's high card being only a 7. On the same hand, I think you're overvaluing them for the same reason. Some others might have the same draw, but with a higher card.

You're right, I missed the other gutshot with the 4. However, I still think you're giving too many outs to the flush. It's not the nut flush.

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Yes, I always worry someone has a higher flush draw, or someone always has a bigger set, etc.

Don't be weak tight, hero's hand my look bad, but on the turn, it's got mucho equity.