Hand from a 6-max table -- handreading.

[Entity]

Reads: Button will usually bet when checked to. BB is jason_t. We are playing slightly looser than normal but playing well postflop. Hint: I should have bet the river.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with XX.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, CO folds, Button calls.

River: (15 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Qxc?

[Shillx]

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Qxc?

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Nah. It could be KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but the sheer lack of combinations makes it less likely. I don't think it is getting 3-bet on the flop though so it is still a possible hand. Put more players in there and there is no way it could be Qx [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

I would guess KK with a lot of certainty. In fact, I'd lay 6:1 that it is KK. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit - Jason has a busted flush draw and the other dude probably has some kind of missed draw though it is hard to say.

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I would guess KK with a lot of certainty. In fact, I'd lay 6:1 that it is KK. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Can you explain why?

I guess since I have no idea how these two players play, even though I read these forums all of the time, I wouldn't rule out A8/A8s or Q8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I don't know what the *hint* the poster gave really means, but I read it as one of two things: either the 8 helped, or more likely that Hero should be extracting value from missed flush draws that might call 1 bet with 1 pair.

I'm learning, so please be nice.

[Shillx]

Well there are 6 combos of KK and just 1 KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], so it is 6:1 against him having KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. In reality he could have various different underpairs (KK/JJ/TT/99), but it is tough to differentiate between them so I just picked KK as the lucky hand.

I don't know if A8s is a possible hand, but I omitted it when he raised preflop. I don't know much about 6-max ranges so it could still be a viable hand. If it is, the odds go down that he actually holds it when he just calls the flop raise. IMO any Ax hand that raises preflop is making it 3-bets on the flop, so I eliminated all top pair hands when he just called.

Q8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is not a good hand to raise from the SB. He would have to be getting out of line to include that into his range. It is also just one combo and that makes it far less likely then something like KK or JJ.

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I don't know if A8s is a possible hand, but I omitted it when he raised preflop. I don't know much about 6-max ranges so it could still be a viable hand. If it is, the odds go down that he actually holds it when he just calls the flop raise. IMO any Ax hand that raises preflop is making it 3-bets on the flop, so I eliminated all top pair hands when he just called.

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Having played this game quite often, I think A8 is definately in (and should be in) Hero's preflop raising range in this game.

I agree that the chance of it goes down when Hero just calls the flop raise, however given the action presented to Hero, I believe calling might be better than 3-betting. Since the flop raiser is immediately to his left, simply calling the flop in hopes to raise the field on a non-club turn might have been the best line for Hero's A8 ... the non-club part being the key for me. I liken it to the TT on a 9xx board where your hand is likely good, but very vulnerable. If your relative position is advantageous, then wait &amp; exploit it after a safe turn.

What do you think?

Edit:
Forgot the large PPs. I remove these from Hero's range when I see the turn check/raise. When Hero's raised on the flop &amp; the third guy cold calls, he should think there's a good chance one of the villain's has an A. It's unlikely both are on flush draws, and given Ax is a 6-max magnet for many players, I think the turn check-raise is dubious. If BB has the A, it's got a weak kicker, so there's a chance of folding him. But, given these guys are friends &amp; play back at each other all of the time, I think that isn't happening. The turn bettor isn't folding an A, as it's only one back to him, and I don't believe either Villain would fold a flush draw here.

So, I dismiss high PPs from Hero's range...

[Disconnected]

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Well there are 6 combos of KK and just 1 KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], so it is 6:1 against him having KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. In reality he could have various different underpairs (KK/JJ/TT/99), but it is tough to differentiate between them so I just picked KK as the lucky hand.

I don't know if A8s is a possible hand, but I omitted it when he raised preflop. I don't know much about 6-max ranges so it could still be a viable hand. If it is, the odds go down that he actually holds it when he just calls the flop raise. IMO any Ax hand that raises preflop is making it 3-bets on the flop, so I eliminated all top pair hands when he just called.

Q8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is not a good hand to raise from the SB. He would have to be getting out of line to include that into his range. It is also just one combo and that makes it far less likely then something like KK or JJ.

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Do you think QQ is a possibility? I only thought about it since the OP had a hint that he should have bet the river and a read on button that button would bet if checked to. I thought one possibility is that Rob was trying for a c/r on the river, since many hands that would pay off a river bet would also bet if checked to. FPS on my part?

[DavidC]

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Qxc?

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Nah. It could be KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but the sheer lack of combinations makes it less likely. I don't think it is getting 3-bet on the flop though so it is still a possible hand. Put more players in there and there is no way it could be Qx [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

I would guess KK with a lot of certainty. In fact, I'd lay 6:1 that it is KK. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit - Jason has a busted flush draw and the other dude probably has some kind of missed draw though it is hard to say.

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Kinda curious here, why would Jason iso-raise vs Entity when he has a fourflush?

[jason_t]

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Qxc?

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Nah. It could be KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but the sheer lack of combinations makes it less likely. I don't think it is getting 3-bet on the flop though so it is still a possible hand. Put more players in there and there is no way it could be Qx [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

I would guess KK with a lot of certainty. In fact, I'd lay 6:1 that it is KK. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit - Jason has a busted flush draw and the other dude probably has some kind of missed draw though it is hard to say.

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Kinda curious here, why would Jason iso-raise vs Entity when he has a fourflush?

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If I fold the rest of the field I have a better chance of winning the pot without improving to a flush.

[Watain]

KQs, QJs, (QTs)

BB seems to have missed a flush draw. I do not think he had an ace. On the flop he wanted to represent the A, b/c he knew the other ppl holding a A would properbly have raised pre-flop (and he knows that you raises a lot of cards... hehe). Not very succesfull with this action, he slowed down on the turn and hoped for the flush on the river.