To believe or not to believe - that is the quesiton.

[Trantor]

There need no be a difference.

An agnostic holds the view that the existance or non-existance of God cannot be proved.

An atheist holds the positive belief that God doesn't exist.

These two views are not mutually exclusive.

It also to be noted that a person can be a theist (eg Christian) and also be an agnostic. In fact, It my understanding that Christian belief is founded on faith and that it is perhaps considered blasphemous to ask or want God to prove his existance because it should be through faith that you come to Him. That is, I had assumed Christianity is an agnostic/theist religion, but I digress.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
There need no be a difference.

An agnostic holds the view that the existance or non-existance of God cannot be proved.

An atheist holds the positive belief that God doesn't exist.

These two views are not mutually exclusive.


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that people who claim to be athiests often don't hold a positive belief that god doesn't exist. Earlier the definition from wiki was posted
[ QUOTE ]
"Atheism, in its broadest sense, is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods, thus contrasting with theism

[/ QUOTE ]
Infering what someone believes because they call themselves athiest or agnostic is so prone to cause confusion that it would be a lot easier to avoid them as labels.

chez

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
There need no be a difference.

An agnostic holds the view that the existance or non-existance of God cannot be proved.

An atheist holds the positive belief that God doesn't exist.

These two views are not mutually exclusive.

[/ QUOTE ]

All atheists are agnostic. All agnostics are not atheists.

Isn’t that what I said (thought) to begin with?



[ QUOTE ]
It also to be noted that a person can be a theist (eg Christian) and also be an agnostic. In fact, It my understanding that Christian belief is founded on faith and that it is perhaps considered blasphemous to ask or want God to prove his existance because it should be through faith that you come to Him. That is, I had assumed Christianity is an agnostic/theist religion, but I digress.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your understanding is the same as mine. In fact all religions are agnostic.

I said something similar in an above post:

"We believers (least I do) realize this to. Guess we believers are agnostics too. We just chose to believe certain things that we know are impossible to know."

[purnell]

[ QUOTE ]
the tone of many agnostics here just seems to be so militant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alot of non-believers see themelves as tiny islands of sanity in a sea of madness.

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]

Infering what someone believes because they call themselves athiest or agnostic is so prone to cause confusion that it would be a lot easier to avoid them as labels.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. I have found the the same, personally, with people who call themselves Christian.
The following is copied from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/393479.stm

(The point of the quote is the last paragraph)


QUOTE

For many people, the word "heretic" conjures images of witch-hunts and burnings at the stake, Joan of Arc and the Spanish Inquisition.

But strange as it may seem, the term could be making something of a comeback, if a proposal at the Church of England synod makes it into law.



Ronald Pearse explains his belief in God
Tribunals would be held - behind closed doors - to ask allegedly heretical priests if they believed in the central tenets of the Church.

It is some years since David Jenkins, then Bishop of Durham, hit the headlines for saying he did not believe in the physical resurrection of Christ, or the virgin birth.

But the bishop was not alone in thinking things which Church authorities find unpalatable.

There is in particular one group, called Sea of Faith, which has attracted names such as "Godless vicars" and "atheist priests". It claims it has up to 50 vicars and some Roman Catholic priests in its membership, as well as rank and file church members.


[ image: Anthony Freeman, who lost his job in 1994]
Anthony Freeman, who lost his job in 1994
It is easy to see why the organisation has been controversial. Although it has about 700 members in the UK, it draws on several denominations and also other religions. But what binds the members together is that they share the view that religion is a "human creation".

Some of its members go further and believe that God is also a human creation - a metaphor for human values such as love and forgiveness.

In other words, some of them believe there is no such thing as God in the traditional sense of an independent being.

The group is all the more controversial because some of its members decide to stay within the Church, even as vicars, and to continue to call themselves Christians.

UNQUOTE

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Infering what someone believes because they call themselves athiest or agnostic is so prone to cause confusion that it would be a lot easier to avoid them as labels.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. I have found the the same, personally, with people who call themselves Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not incorrect, Trant.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the tone of many agnostics here just seems to be so militant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alot of non-believers see themelves as tiny islands of sanity in a sea of madness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to worry, purnell. John Nash (A Beautiful Mind) eventually figured out he was insane, too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]

Your understanding is the same as mine. In fact all religions are agnostic.

I said something similar in an above post:

"We believers (least I do) realize this to. Guess we believers are agnostics too. We just chose to believe certain things that we know are impossible to know."

[/ QUOTE ]

I got the impression from an earlier post of yours (earlier than my first one which prompted mine) that you thought belivers and agnostics were on two sides of a divide.

QUOTE
Can we agree on this: That to believe that “there is absolutely no possibility of a God” is as “silly” a thinking as how agnostics view what believers think (them silly) about their religion?
UNQUOTE

Maybe you meant to comment on how _atheists_ view what believers think?

[Trantor]

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An agnostic is one who does not 'know' whether or not god exists, and according to the strict defintion of 'atheist, all agnostics are without belief and thus atheists.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not correct. An agnostic believes it is not possible to prove, in principal, whether God exists or not. Hence an agnostic can either positively believe in God, positively believe God doesn't exist or have no belief either way.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your understanding is the same as mine. In fact all religions are agnostic.

I said something similar in an above post:

"We believers (least I do) realize this to. Guess we believers are agnostics too. We just chose to believe certain things that we know are impossible to know."

[/ QUOTE ]

I got the impression from an earlier post of yours (earlier than my first one which prompted mine) that you thought belivers and agnostics were on two sides of a divide.

QUOTE
Can we agree on this: That to believe that “there is absolutely no possibility of a God” is as “silly” a thinking as how agnostics view what believers think (them silly) about their religion?
UNQUOTE

Maybe you meant to comment on how _atheists_ view what believers think?

[/ QUOTE ]


No. Using the word atheist and agnostic how I originally use it (as you do), I am saying that agnostics agree (with us believers) that it is silly for atheists to say “there is absolutely no possibility of a God”. Likewise the same agnostic would say it is silly that believers think “ X religion is silly because…” (Btw, I do not address in my statement you quoted what believers think about “no possibility” or “no God”)

The divide is dependent on the context:

1) When we are talking the possibility of a God. Divide looks like this -

Atheists/ agnostics and believers

Atheist give it no possibility. Agnostics and believers give it some possibility.

2) When we are talking about belief in a God or belief that there is no God, the divide looks like this -
Atheists, believers/agnostics

Now atheists and believers are on the same side of the divide. They believe each their own way. Agnostic take no stance on believing there is a God or believing there is no God.