So many outs. *sob*

jedi · #1 10-30-2004, 11:51 AM

Should I be playing this less agressively?

Ultimate Bet 3/6 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Jedi is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Jedi raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Jedi caps, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Jedi bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (10.33 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Jedi bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (14.33 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Jedi checks.

Final Pot: 14.33 BB
Main Pot: 14.33 BB, between UTG, UTG+1, Jedi, SB and BB. > High won by UTG+1 (14.33 BB) No low.

Results in white below: 
BB has Js 7c 5c 4s (High: one pair, jacks).
UTG has Kc 2c 7h 3s (High: one pair, kings).
UTG+1 has Td Ks Th Ad (High: three of a kind, tens).
Jedi has 2d 3c Ah 9h (High: high card, ace).
SB has 8s Kd Qs Jc (High: two pair, kings and jacks).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 14.33 BB.

Buzz · #2 10-30-2004, 06:55 PM

Jedi - I do understand how you feel.

After the flop you would like to see any one of about 24 cards on the turn, some more than others. (I'm not counting the eight of hearts as one of the cards you'd like to see on the turn since it pairs the board). There are 21 other cards you'd rather not see on the turn (including the eight of hearts).

As luck would have it, the turn was one of the 21 cards you'd rather not have seen.

Then after the turn there are only 23 cards you'd like to see. I'm not counting the jack of hearts as one of the cards you'd like to see on the turn since it pairs the board. Even without the jack of hearts, there are more cards you like than don't like on the river.

As luck will have it, the river is one of the cards you'd rather not have.

You probably were the favorite after the flop and also the favorite after the turn. (I don't know as I haven't looked at the results, but that's what I'm guessing). Sometimes when you're the favorite, you lose anyway.

With regards to your question about being too aggressive, I don't think you were too aggressive here.

I probably would not have raised before the flop with your hand, but I don't fault your pre-flop raise. (I think your pre-flop raise partially identifies your hand to some opponents who may not pay off or initiate bets on later betting rounds). On the other hand, I might have raised before the flop too. Sometimes I would raise from the button with your cards but usually I wouldn't. I would strongly suspect that someone raising from the button very well might have a hand such as yours and would play accordingly.
You should not read any more or less into that than exactly what it says. I'm not implying I would fold or call or raise - just that I would give serious consideration to the possibility you had very close to the actual cards you held for your raise and cap on the first betting round - and that consideration would influence my play.

With four opponents, you easily have favorable odds to bet after the flop and also to bet after the turn. I certainly would bet your hand against four opponents in both of these spots. No question about that.

Then you missed in both places. It happens and it stings when it does. The less likely you were to miss, the more it stings when you do.

Buzz

iblucky4u2 · #3 10-31-2004, 06:36 PM

Jedi,

I think your cap pre-flop was a bit aggressive, but with 4 callers, especially poor players like these, you do have a pretty good advantage to push.

I like your bets on the flop and the turn.

My only other question is why not bet the river? While unlikely that all will fold, it has been known to happen, especially if players miss their "nut" hand.

Yads · #4 11-01-2004, 12:43 PM

No you played it just right, you have a monster draw, you want as many chips in the middle as you can get. You just got unlucky that's all. A draw to the nut flush, plus nut low draw with counterfiet protection is a huge draw.

jedi · #5 11-01-2004, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

My only other question is why not bet the river? While unlikely that all will fold, it has been known to happen, especially if players miss their "nut" hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sometimes get into this spot and when I bet the river, there'll be at least 2 callers here. Even if I'm only half right, there'll be 1 caller. It might work in Hold em, but I had nothing at all here in Omaha. I'd be really surprised if someone folded here in a big non-split pot for 1 bet.

iblucky4u2 · #6 11-01-2004, 04:25 PM

While the opportunities for bluffing at low level O/8 are rare, some of the biggest pots I've won were when a flop started with 2 low cards, lots of raising on flop and turn, then total disapointment when the river is a pair or high card. Players can't wait to fold their missed hands. If you are only right one in 5, you will be way ahead.

chaos · #7 11-02-2004, 09:21 AM

Did the SB go all in when he three bet? He disappeared from the action but was in at the end.

I think you played it fine. You had a big draw for both directions and didn't get there. It happens. You need to be understand these things so that they do not upset you and effect your play on future hands.

jedi · #8 11-02-2004, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did the SB go all in when he three bet? He disappeared from the action but was in at the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think he did, which is probably why he 3-bet that.