Turn Decision

[worm33]

30-60 Canterbury very good game. Very bad loose aggressive dumb player open limps UTG+2. folded to me and I raise one off the button with QcJs. Decent but very tight and a player who highly respects me 3 bets from the sb and Worst Player In the World calls from the bb. You canterbury guys should know who I'm talking about. Other very bad player calls. I call.
Flop comes 10d 9s 4s. Sb bets out 2 terrible players call and I call. 10 of spades comes on the turn putting 3 spades on the board. Check, Check to bad player who bets? I can see folding calling or raising here...2nd bad player takes a lot of shots in a lot of pots. what to do?

[Manzanita]

worm33,

Since you have position why not raise? If you can get the blinds to fold you may pick up some more outs by making your overcards good (in addition to your straight and flush draws).

-- Manzanita

[Clarkmeister]

I like raising the flop, but I understand why you didn't.

On the turn I think folding is out of the question, especially since you have a spade. Protecting your spade by raising is unlikely since it's rare that a bigger spade will fold. Plus, someone could make a second best hand if you hit the king. The only real reason to raise would be if you think that you can get the turn bettor to fold either here or on the river. If that's not the case, call and make your hand on the river.

[worm33]

[ QUOTE ]
I like raising the flop, but I understand why you didn't.

Why do you like raising the flop here Clark? Obviously you understand my reasoning for not raising the flop and I'm pretty sure I know why you like it but if you could add some detail that would be great. Maybe theres something im missing.

[bicyclekick]

I like a call here on the turn. I think a fold would be pretty innapropriate. A raise is OK but I don't think it helps you quite enough. I don't see the SB having a Q or J in his hand so you're not clearing your outs. I really doubt the BB is folding overs if he has you dominated, either.

I like the call on the flop caus eyou get to trap all the dumbasses in on the turn for 2 bets when you turn the straight because they are in between you and the bettor. If i'm going to raise, I better be damn sure the SB is gonna 3 bet, because if he doesn't and it gets checked to you on the turn I don't think you're maximizing given your position reletive to all of the other players. Another thing is although it's really unlikely they'll fold for 2 more bets on the flop, it would be in the back of my mind.

[worm33]

I don't see the SB having a Q or J in his hand so you're not clearing your outs.


This is by far the best reason to raise, not because he doesnt have a queen or a jack in his hand, but because hes probably goona fold 2 aces-jacks without a spade. The worst card in the deck hit on the turn for his hand the 10 of spades putting a flush and paired top pair. And I mentioned in my first post, that he highly respects my play.

[TStoneMBD]

if the bb is going to the showdown no matter what, i dont think raising the turn in attempt to get sb to fold, clearing up your QJ outs is a winning play. its unlikely the QorJ is good at this point against a bad player in the BB. even if your QorJ outs were good against him, it isnt worth it because the SB may not even fold. he may have pocket queens without a spade and is just playing passive. if you can get the bb to fold to your semibluff then by all means go ahead, but it doesnt seem like it. easy call in my mind with these player descriptions.

[Nightwish]

I also like raising the flop here, but it doesn't really make sense to raise the turn. Call and pray for that K.

[worm33]

You guys must think totaly backwards than me. I do not like raising the flop at all, the most likely scenario is the SB having an overpair and myself putting in 3 bets in a pot where I only needed to put in 1 and close the action with a mediocre draw.

I dont ever want the action checked to me on the turn here where I can sometimes with the right cirumstance pick up the pot with an oppurtune raise in the right spot.

I really think calling with 2 players yet to act behind on the turn is not a good play. I have 2 overcards which are almost never ever good unless I can get the sb to fold. The 4th nut spade draw, and if i hit my straight without making a flush (6 cards) theres at least a 30% chance that its not going to be good if the sb has 2 kings or somebody has k10 or 10-8 or of course if the bettor has a flush.

The SB is screaming at you to take the pot away from him here as that was a terrible card for his hand and im pretty sure he would have bet with a spade in his hand. Eh i dont know I think this is a very interesting hand, hope to get more responses. I really believe its a raise or fold situation.

[schmidts31]

Worm, I think you are right on with the flop play...why raise the flop and get popped by the sb when he 3 bet pre-flop...you know he has a good holding...he wanted it head up and to charge max for flop...
second, not only is the turn bad for him it is bad for you too...you have a straight draw with 2 weak over cards that a probably no good...you also stare down a board pair on turn with top flop card as the paired card...and a 3 flush.
the dope taking the shot at the pot is trying to pick it up..the thing is, the sb knows that is a bad card, and somebody might have a 10, and not lay it down on the flop...certainly not the sb though. he raised pre flop with a premium holding...BB, maybe, and he might be waiting to spring the trap.
If you raise the turn, you have to bet the river...to win it..that is the problem... if you bust, you will win with only the turn bettor having nothing and a pure bluff on the turn...if he has a ten or a flush you will probably get re raised, or called immediately..

I think the SB is done with the hand...The BB may or may not fold... he is calling with any spade..
I would say Turn Bettor has 1 spade in hand and is trying to win it right there...if he has a spade he calls your raise.
If you raise the turn you almost have no shot to win the pot if he has a made hand...and calls the river...
you are thinking trips or flush is all he can call a raise with right...what if he has nut flush draw...misses and catches a pair...will he fold to a bet on river if he makes a low pair.. say A6 spades ???
very interesting...I might raise given your experience with these players and thier feelings toward you...
I say this BB is calling with a spade.. if SB had AA KK or QQ with a spade he bets turn..and grits his teeth...
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]I am a little fried thinking about it after a 10 hour session and listening to you...
let me know what you think..
schmidts31