Low limit O-8 Hand

[Manzanita]

This is literally my second hand in a 9-handed $1-2 online game. While I have played with two of the players before (one is the button who folded on the flop and the other was UTG who just called throughout the hand) the others were unknown.

I'm in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Only one player in front folds; I complete and the BB raps.

The flop comes T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I bet out, two players call, the next player raises, there are 2 folds, then a cold call, and the button folds. I just call as do the next two players.

Five of us see the turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, the BB bets, and everyone calls.

The river is the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I bet out, the next two players call, the flop raiser raises all-in, there's a fold, I 3-bet, and the next two players call.

I obviously win high. Low goes to UTG who had 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

My question: I played the flop and turn passively hoping to get overcalls from the two players behind me. Should I have been jamming the pot instead? On the turn I was pretty sure that I was only competing for half the pot, and if the board paired I thought it likely I was beat.

-- Manzanita

[BlueBear]

You must jam the board for value at every oppurtunity, no slowplaying is necessary in such a loose game, you'll just simply losing money by playing it in a fancy manner.

[Moneyline]

Preflop: I'd complete as well, the pot is huge and your hand has some good features to it.

Flop: I'd keep jamming here. The pot is so big it may entice the players to your left to stay in, and there's a good chance the action will be capped by the raiser. I'd want low draws to pay the absolute maximum to draw to their hands.

Turn: I'd Bet out and keep jamming the pot. I don't think you have to play in fear of the board pairing or a straight flush. Most cards left in the deck will be safe for you, and you may even scoop if a 2 or 3 comes. Since so many players saw the flop, I would guess that these players are very loose, so they may not have a problem with calling multiple bets with non-nut hands.

River: I'd do the same.

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
You must jam the board for value at every oppurtunity, no slowplaying is necessary in such a loose game, you'll just simply losing money by playing it in a fancy manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

You won't lose any low draws by pumping the pot,
and might actually fold a weak two pair.

[Beavis68]

the turn check is ok, but when everyone calls back to you, why not check-raise it?

[3rdEye]

On the flop, I think your line is ok, but I might even 3-bet, given that it's unlikely that many players will fold. In fact, I really don't see any reason not to 3-bet; the players who called 2 cold aren't folding, and it's unlikely that anyone else is folding either. If you think you can get more money in the pot on the turn by calling the raise, your line is ok, but for this play to work, you have to be setting up a c/r on the turn.

On the turn, you HAVE to checkraise with all those players trapped for one bet. They aren't going to fold anyway, with 3 low cards on the board.

[Yads]

Smooth calling on the flop may have been ok, but you definitley have to raise the turn once BB bets. You'll trap everyone else for one more bet with your 2nd nut high. I think raising the flop is a good idea as well. You have to charge the low draws to take half of the pot away from you, besides which you have 4th nut low, which is probably pretty worthless in a multi way pot, but if a 2 or 3 come off, you might be good for low as well.

[Buzz]

Manzanita - My immediate reaction to your post was that you should have re-raised on the flop and you also should have bet the turn. My thinking was your hand/flop fit simply isn't strong enough not to jamb, that you should want to make it as expensive as possible for the full house draws, so that at least they're getting worse odds for their draws - and that you also want to collect from the low draws.

However, on reflection, by not re-raising on the flop, you did somewhat disguise your hand. And disguising your hand may have induced your opponents to bet, raise, and call (as they did) on the turn and river.

Hard to know for sure, but as things turned out, I think you might have done as well as you could do. Depends on your opponents, on how they would perceive your re-raise on the second betting round, and on how they would react to it. The same is true for betting the turn. It’s pretty hard for anybody to put you on the nut flush, and as a consequence, someone might be more likely to be aggressive with a non-nut flush.

You’re out of position, which makes your play more difficult. I like betting the turn because I don’t want my opponents to possibly get a free card, but if you’re sure BB (or somebody) will bet it for you, maybe it works out better for you to let BB do the betting for you, especially if your other opponents give you more respect than BB. Except that I don’t like check-raising in general, because I think it often makes for bad feelings, check-raising on the turn seems a good play. But if you check-raise on the turn, maybe you get less on the river. Hard to say.

But don’t let my enigmatic feelings confuse you.
• I definitely think you should bet the turn rather than check, and then if raised, I think you should re-raise.
• I definitely think you should bet and re-raise on the river.
• As I write this I’m undecided about re-raising or not on the flop. You might often get more from your opponents on later rounds when the cards are favorable for you (no board pair) by backing off (as you did). Depends on your opponents, I think.

Buzz

[bigredlemon]

From Theory of Poker:

Slow playing is only correct if the value you get from disguising your hand is greater than the cost of not playing the hand optimally.

Do you think this is true here?


TOP also says that slowplaying a nut hand when someone with the second nut hand wants to give action is a serious mistake.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
From Theory of Poker:
Slow playing is only correct if the value you get from disguising your hand is greater than the cost of not playing the hand optimally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big Red Lemon -

• (1) Since slow playing may be the optimal way to play a hand, that sentence doesn’t make sense.

• (2) In addition, you seem to be comparing apples (value) to oranges (cost).

• (3) Finally, that isn’t from TOP. At least I don’t see those words written (or implied) anywhere in the chapter on slow playing in my copy of TOP.

I believe you may be mis-reading or mis-interpreting TOP. A second possibility is the words you are using have a different meaning to you than to me (and Webster’s dictionary). A third possibility is you are simply not telling the truth (but that doesn’t make sense either).

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think this is true here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not here or anywhere. It’s nonsense. It’s not from TOP.

[ QUOTE ]
TOP also says that slowplaying a nut hand when someone with the second nut hand wants to give action is a serious mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

What???

I don’t think TOP says that either. At least I can’t find it anywhere in my copy.

Buzz